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Subject: FYI- did u know 28 Americans die daily due to gun violence
Necromancer    3/31/2009 2:41:30 AM
Gun control overdue!!!
 
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Aussiegunneragain    stbretnco - ps   4/5/2009 10:39:54 AM
 .. and I forgot to add that perhaps the fact that you and others can't have a discussion about the Second Amendment without going hysterical really just highlights that there is a problem. It's really just a transparent attempt to shout people down who don't agree with you, pretty much like a lot of hard left activists do on environmental and social issues. I guess that one type of fanatic really isn't that different from another when it comes down to it.
 
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PlatypusMaximus       4/5/2009 11:03:30 AM
52 illegal aliens received organ transplants in California last year,. There's 52 more dead Americans...You don't see people wanting to make illegal aliens illegal, do you?
 
I just (as in last night) bought a Surefire E2D defender flashlight after a friend's wife demonstrated one for me. Coolest thing EVER if you can't or don't want to carry a gun.  It's as bright as the Sun. 1 shot and you're seeing spots...A good glance and you're blind enough to loose your balance....mean little meat tenderizer on both ends.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Aussie reply   4/5/2009 12:28:37 PM
In other words the researchers is saying "I'm biased and I'd really like better data to support what suits me, but I don't so have this inadequate one. Basically you can't prove a causation unless you talk to somebody who was thinking about it but changes their mind is likely to talk to researchs about it. I know that is unlikely to happen but does it make sense to you that somebody who is nutty enough to be bent on mass murder, probably followed by suicide, is going to worry aobut whether the State has concealed carry laws or not? It doesn't to me.
 
Anyway, the more I look into this the more I see that the debate is so charged and the data collection difficulties so inadequate that you can't really trust data that anybody on either side say's, pretty much like is the case on climate change. To my mind it is just one of those cases where a society decides what they want to do democratically based on what the majority of people believe to be the best outcome, but the smart approach for this would be for people to come up with some sort of a compromise that addresses everybodies concerns to the extent that is possible. <Aga
 
In fact the author you mention wanted to side with the pro-gun control side of the issue but the data prevented him from doing so (read the whole report and his bio). It does not surprise me you would attempt to spin three peer reviewed articles published in prestigious scholarly venues. Your opinion is based upon one sentence in one of the abstracts. It makes my data look pretty damn good. Especially since in three threads and literally dozens of postings where we have debated this topic, you have yet to respond with data. Not one time. Never.  I'll put my data up against your opinion because in the case of your home Australia, crimes went up with the abolishment of firearms, even crimes with guns. We both know it took almost a decade for these crimes to return to pre-ban levels. Again, in UK gun crimes went up and today are 168% of the "pre-ban" number. That is a dismal performance on this social experiment.
 
This is an experiment that has been conducted on a global scale and the results are definitive. Limiting private ownership of the means of self defense causes more rapes, murders, and violent assaults. The answer to crime is inidividuals being able to defend themselves by appropriate means. Using a taser, OC blaster, firearm, jujitsu, cricket bat, or what ever means they have available. People have a natural right of self defense. Taking away the means of self defense is a denial of that natural right.
 
Gun control advocates have a psuedo religious zeal for attacking this natural right and they ignore the tragic results of their policies.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    More Research   4/5/2009 12:47:18 PM
ht****tp://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Lott/lott.pdf

CRIME, DETERRENCE, AND RIGHT-TO-CARRY

CONCEALED HANDGUNS

JOHN R. LOTT, JR., and DAVID B. MUSTARD*

Abstract

Using cross-sectional time-series data for U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992, we find that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes, without increasing accidental deaths. If those states without right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, county- and state-level data indicate that approximately 1,500 murders would have been avoided yearly. Similarly, we predict that rapes would have declined by over 4,000, robbery by over 11,000, and aggravated assaults by over 60,000. We also find criminals substituting into property crimes involving stealth, where the probability of contact between the criminal and the victim is minimal. Further, higher arrest and conviction rates consistently reduce crime. The estimated annual gain from all remaining states adopting these laws was at least $5.74 billion in 1992. The annual social benefit from an additional concealed handgun permit is as high as $5,000.
 
The most recent audit of these data was 2008. In every case peer reviewed articles (in magazines like the Stanford Law review) have supported the conclusion. Data v. religion. I'll take the data.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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stbretnco       4/5/2009 3:24:40 PM
AG,
 
Please show me where mulesing (which is a practice I personally have no issue with, as it's beneficial to the sheep in the long run) is protected in your constitution?
 
 
The gun control debate is about much, much more than merely the possession of firearms. If you can't see that, you really haven't researched the topic.
 
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sentinel28a    Whoa!   4/5/2009 6:02:10 PM
I have no problem with Aussie giving his opinions on gun control or anything else.  That's his right to do so on the internet and on SP, as long as he doesn't break the rules and SysOps bans him.  Just as I have the right to point out when I think Australia does something dumb (which they rarely do; they're good allies).  Sometimes it helps when you have another viewpoint on things.  You don't have to agree--and I disagree vehemently with AG on gun control.
 
(BTW, AG, it was in Binghamton, not Birmingham.  Just thought I'd point that out.)
 
And I have to agree with Necro on the Cz75.  Good pistol, if you can find one.  If it's good for Rally Vincent, it's good for me...
 
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Panther    AG's comments are a non-issue   4/5/2009 8:03:10 PM
Of all the nationalities in the world, there are only a few whose opinions i consider more valid than all the rest. Australians are top of my list of foreign views that i have respected for a long time. So AG is perfectly welcome too interject his thoughts on the US anytime he may so wish! Also, seeing that of all the nations in the world, Australia is again, one of the select few who has stood by us more often in our minor/major conflicts when the rest of the world chose to sit back and nitpick and harp on all of our failings and shortcomings without offering one iota of solutions to all of the worldly problems! Especially in that regard, i would argue that even for many an Australian here on this board have more of a right in voicing their opinions on subjects dealing with internal matters of the US, even more so than for the noncommittal citizens of the US?
 
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cwDeici       4/6/2009 1:22:05 AM
Gun control is a good idea if it helps restrict the Black Maket. In the US it clearly does not. Therefore Gun Control is not suited for the US.
 
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cwDeici       4/6/2009 1:23:09 AM

Of all the nationalities in the world, there are only a few whose opinions i consider more valid than all the rest. Australians are top of my list of foreign views that i have respected for a long time. So AG is perfectly welcome too interject his thoughts on the US anytime he may so wish! Also, seeing that of all the nations in the world, Australia is again, one of the select few who has stood by us more often in our minor/major conflicts when the rest of the world chose to sit back and nitpick and harp on all of our failings and shortcomings without offering one iota of solutions to all of the worldly problems! Especially in that regard, i would argue that even for many an Australian here on this board have more of a right in voicing their opinions on subjects dealing with internal matters of the US, even more so than for the noncommittal citizens of the US?


Interesting. My opinion is that the vast majority of Australians are traitorous self-rightous wankers who won't give the champions of the west the time of day.
 
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cwDeici       4/6/2009 1:24:53 AM
Actually, wankers is pushing it, only as many as the rest of the world. Lots of nice Australian people. The rest I said I believe applies though.
 
'Guerilla's are invincible.' - one of many statements I've heard from Australians, this from a 50-something man.
 
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