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Subject: FYI- did u know 28 Americans die daily due to gun violence
Necromancer    3/31/2009 2:41:30 AM
Gun control overdue!!!
 
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strat-T21C       4/30/2009 11:20:43 PM

Yes,  what they typically do is expand the definition of 'children' to include 18 year old and below. Thus you capture the statistics for the majority of gang bangers who are a huge chunk of the firearm related deaths in this country as they fight over drug dealing turf. This is simply deceptive and dishonest. Hell, they could include death rates for 18 old soldiers as well if they really wanted to inflate things I suppose and it would be equally honest.




Yeah screw them, they aren't real children whose deaths we care about because they aren't nice white, middle class all American kids. Never mind that many of them have never met their fathers, that their mothers are crack whores and that they have never had any example set beyond that which the gangs provide. That makes no difference because we are libertarian's and we just "got it" when it comes to how to live a wholesome life. Our environment and upbringing had nothing to do with it  so we don't even need to be grateful that we grew up under decent circumstances.

 
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Since these nigger and spic kids are so useless we'll just keep letting them have cheap guns to kill each other off because we don't really give a shit about them.
 
 
 
Wow! THAT"S not ignorant, nooo not at all!!!  Time to leave Mom's basement dude. I was gonna join in here, but after that I'll just stay away. Time to go "back down-under"
 
 
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We definately don't care enough to consider measures which might make it harder for them to get guns in the first place. That might make it a little bit harder and expensive for for us to get a guns too and God Dammit, we might only have enough money left over to get a 50 inch plasma TV rather than that 63 inch one that we really wanted or God forbid we might only be able to afford a 6 cylinder vehicle rather than 8!  We can't have good folk sitting their fat arses in front of a substandard telly or in an under-powered pussymobile that for the sake of a 16 year old "Gangbanger's" life now can we!

 



 
 
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Newton       5/1/2009 7:30:44 PM
Quite why the Brits still think they can stick their snotty noses into our business defeats me.
 
Perhaps it's because so many of them are desparate to emigrate here and escape their "gun free paradise".
 
Excuse me while I puke.
 
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RockyMTNClimber       5/1/2009 9:43:44 PM
It amazes me the extent to which the gun control crowd are willing to ignore the history of their tragic policies. There is no dispute in the Australian Gov't statistics. The policy was enacted at the lowest point on this chart in Late 1996 early 1997. We see the effect of the policy.
 
It is not possible to make this go away nor is it possible to in good faith spin it in a favorable light.
 
 
Chart: Trends in homicide incidents
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Disco reply   5/1/2009 10:21:38 PM
We know the homicide rate increased in Austrlia upon the institution of these gun band. We also know they remained above the 1996 low for about 7 years. Those aren't just data points. They are victims. They are people who died in larger numbers than they had before the ban. We know this because of the Australian Gov't data already posted and agreed upon by both sides of this argument.  Here is how the Austrlian media interpreted these events at the time:
 
Gun Crime Soars in Run Up to New Laws

The Sydney Morning Herald, Wednesday, October 28, 1998

Crime involving the use of guns is on the rise despite tougher laws - but gun control lobbyists maintain Australia is becoming a safer place. The number of robberies with guns jumped 39 per cent in 1997 to 2,183, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, while assaults involving guns rose 28 per cent to 806 and murders by 19 per cent to 75. Almost half of firearm killings in the seven years to 1997 involved weapons which are now prohibited or restricted following the slaughter of 35 people at Port Arthur in 1996, according to Australian Institute of Criminology research. But gun groups say the new controls have created a thriving black market.

"Before registration, there was no illegal market for long arms and semi-automatics," the president of the Firearm Owners' Association of Australia, Mr Ron Owen, said. "Now the black market of pistols has increased tenfold, and both criminals and non-criminals seek them. And the black market of machine-guns has at least tripled." However, the national spokesman for the Coalition for Gun Control, Mr Roland Brown, described the $500 million gun buy-back scheme which has taken 640,000 weapons out of circulation as an "unqualified success". "Australia is a safer place," he said. 

 
 
The number of Victorians murdered with firearms has almost trebled since the introduction of tighter gun laws.
--Geelong Advertiser, Victoria, Sept. 11, 1997.
  • "Gun crime is on the rise despite tougher laws imposed after the Port Arthur massacre, but gun control lobbyists maintain Australia is a safer place. . . . The number of robberies involving guns jumped 39% last year to 2183, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and assaults involving guns rose 28% to 806. The number of gun murders, excluding the Port Arthur massacre, increased by 19% to 75."
    --"Gun Crime Rises Despite Controls," Illawarra Mercury Oct. 28, 1998.
  • "Crime involving guns is on the rise despite tougher laws. The number of robberies with guns jumped 39% in 1997, while assaults involving guns rose 28% and murders by 19%."
    --"Gun crime soars," Morning Herald, Sydney, Oct. 28, 1998.
  • "Murders by firearms have actually increased (in Victoria) since the buyback scheme, which removed 225,000 registered and unregistered firearms from circulation. There were 18 shooting murders in 1996-97, after the buyback scheme had been introduced, compared with only six in 1995-1996 before the scheme started."
    --"Killings rise in gun hunt," Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 23, 1998.
  • "Victoria is facing one of its worst murder tolls in a decade and its lowest arrest rate ever."
    --Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 11, 1999.
  • "The environment is more violent and dangerous than it was some time ago."
    --South Australia Police Commissioner Mal Hyde, reported in The Advertiser, Adelaide, Dec. 23, 1999.
    •  
     
     
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    Since it took another 7 years to get your homicide rate back to the pre ban level. I am forced to conclude that your ban was ineffective in slowing homicides in Australia. As I have also shown here many times, these effects were also seen in US and UK. These are inarguable facts.
     
    I am happy for Australia that its crime rate finally dropped back to pre ban levels but I think the data indicates it would have anyway. The ban just made all of those victims die a needless death (IMV), or at the very least, is demonstrated to have no effect upon a fluctuating homicide rate. No where here is there evidence that gun control works. Especially since we see supporting data for my position in the other countries. Gun Control is a silly religion, that much is proven.
     
    Check Six
     
    Rocky
     
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    buzzard       5/2/2009 9:49:18 AM
    Since we've got our Aussie pal lecturing us on the ability of guns to cause massacres, I'd like him to explain something. There's this charming little country called Switzerland smack dab in the middle of Europe. Horror of horrors, they have the audacity to place a full auto rifle and plenty of ammunition in each home. Obviously they must be plagued with daily massacres since that's even more gun crazy than the lunatics in the U.S. Oh, wait, there's almost no gun massacres in Switzerland? How can such a thing be in the face of all those twitchy psychotic people and those evil guns?
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    Buzzard   5/5/2009 12:06:46 AM
    Having re-read your post I see what you were getting at and apologize for my (over)reaction to it, particularily with respect to the accusation of racism.
     
    I still think you have missed the point though. There are still lots of kids killing each other with guns in the US even if you take out the 18 year olds. I don't know about you but I would consider that to be an unacceptable situation that justifies whatever action is necessary to rectify it.  Warpig's answer of chucking all firearms offenders in jail won't fix that unless you want to have your jails full of minors. Clearly something needs to be done to stop them from getting hold of the guns in the first place and given that many of them come from a legal source better tracking of legal firearms would seem to be the answer. Tighter regulation of legal firearms is part of the solution and should be accepted as a necessity.
     
    And before anybody goes on a rant about how they will just use knives, baseball bats etc etc, I know that, but those weapons are less deadly than guns so you would expect that taking the guns out of the kids hands would reduce the number of deaths. That is worth it in  my mind.
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    Buzzard   5/5/2009 12:09:35 AM

    Since we've got our Aussie pal lecturing us on the ability of guns to cause massacres, I'd like him to explain something. There's this charming little country called Switzerland smack dab in the middle of Europe. Horror of horrors, they have the audacity to place a full auto rifle and plenty of ammunition in each home. Obviously they must be plagued with daily massacres since that's even more gun crazy than the lunatics in the U.S. Oh, wait, there's almost no gun massacres in Switzerland? How can such a thing be in the face of all those twitchy psychotic people and those evil guns?

    All of those automatic owners are members  of the Swiss Army and would be thoroughly vetted with the weapon stored safely according to army regulations. That is a world of difference from any yob being able to buy a gun so that he can play soldier.
     
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    buzzard       5/5/2009 7:17:05 AM

    All of those automatic owners are members  of the Swiss Army and would be thoroughly vetted with the weapon stored safely according to army regulations. That is a world of difference from any yob being able to buy a gun so that he can play soldier.
     
     Thoroughly vetted? Everyone in Switzerland is in the militia. They are pretty much just as vetted as people in the U.S. who can buy a gun (as in not crazy or criminal).
     
    As for the stored safely, um, kept in a closet with a couple hundred rounds of ammo is what they do. My guns are stored more safely than that in my gun safe. Though the safe storage of guns is fairly moot if the point, which you often make, is about people flipping out and massacring crowds. These are full auto weapons BTW, which one would think are optimal for that crowd killing purpose. 
     
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    buzzard       5/5/2009 7:27:20 AM
    I still think you have missed the point though. There are still lots of kids killing each other with guns in the US even if you take out the 18 year olds. I don't know about you but I would consider that to be an unacceptable situation that justifies whatever action is necessary to rectify it.  Warpig's answer of chucking all firearms offenders in jail won't fix that unless you want to have your jails full of minors. Clearly something needs to be done to stop them from getting hold of the guns in the first place and given that many of them come from a legal source better tracking of legal firearms would seem to be the answer. Tighter regulation of legal firearms is part of the solution and should be accepted as a necessity.
     
     O.K.  it is already illegal for kids under 18 to actually own weapons (parents can 'give' them to kids younger than that, but the parents really own them). So we already have laws against all that which have no effect. You then want to introduce registration on all legally owned guns. A number of states have this in effect. California, for example, has registration on a large selection of guns, including all those supposedly favored by the gangs. It has no effect. There's been no instance of the registration system being used to arrest anyone.
     
    I know you'll just say they come from neighboring states, but I don't buy it. I again cite the Hawaii case where every gun is licensed and registered and there has been no reduction in crime (compared to states which did not register guns). There are also no neighboring states to import from. 
     
    And before anybody goes on a rant about how they will just use knives, baseball bats etc etc, I know that, but those weapons are less deadly than guns so you would expect that taking the guns out of the kids hands would reduce the number of deaths. That is worth it in  my mind.
     
     But you miss the point that the measures don't work in the first place. They haven't worked anywhere else, and they won't work here. It's not like you need a flood of guns to supply the criminal element. A few will do. They don't expire. They aren't used up. Considering how many tons of illicit drugs go through our fairly porous borders all the time, smuggling a few guns along the way is a trivial matter.
     
     
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    PlatypusMaximus       5/5/2009 7:32:43 AM

    This is why when the woman shoots the would-be rapist in the face, it's murder.

    If there is no justification for owing a gun, how do you justify shooting people?
     
     
     
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    RockyMTNClimber    Weapons of Mass Murder   5/5/2009 7:10:46 PM
    And before anybody goes on a rant about how they will just use knives, baseball bats etc etc, I know that, but those weapons are less deadly than guns so you would expect that taking the guns out of the kids hands would reduce the number of deaths. That is worth it in  my mind. <Aga
     
    The two largest mass murders committed in the US were committed with box cutters hijacking airliners (3000 dead) and then there was the fertilizer spiced with Diesel fuel caper (180 dead). Plenty of the world's serial killers that have fetishes for knives. I suppose we should ban all of the above then? Oh, and you are aware that there are significantly fewer mass killings in those jurisdictions that have more open gun policies? You also might remember the little detail that overall Australia saw more homicides after the ban than before it.
     
    Your plan doesn't work does it.
     
    Check Six
     
    Rocky
     
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    buzzard       5/5/2009 8:28:44 PM
    Another side note of historical significance. Once upon a time, there used to be mass shootings in Israel by Palestinians. They would just stand up in a cafe and start spraying out bullets into the crowd. The  the Israelis did something smart. Did they regulate guns? No. Palestinians couldn't have them already. Did they outlaw guns? See above. They instead made it possible for any Israeli who chose to, to cary a concealed handgun. Lo and behold the next Palestinian who tried the "shoot the crowd" trick was promptly plugged by a few armed Isrealis and the practice halted. The Palestinians learned pretty quickly that the trick no longer worked and they moved on to bombing. 

    Now why do I assume that concealed carry in Isreal will now be blamed for suicide bombing?
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    Buzzard   5/19/2009 6:09:48 AM


    Thoroughly vetted? Everyone in Switzerland is in the militia. They are pretty much just as vetted as people in the U.S. who can buy a gun (as in not crazy or criminal). 

    As for the stored safely, um, kept in a closet with a couple hundred rounds of ammo is what they do. My guns are stored more safely than that in my gun safe. Though the safe storage of guns is fairly moot if the point, which you often make, is about people flipping out and massacring crowds. These are full auto weapons BTW, which one would think are optimal for that crowd killing purpose. 

    You need to check your facts about the Swiss Army, because they are all wrong. All personel undertake comprehensive weapons training and undergo psychological evaluation, rather than some hit and miss mental health check. They do keep their weapons at home and they used to keep 50 rounds of ammo with them for self defence on the way to a marshalling point, but that practice was discontinued last year due to a multiple shooting. In 2001 a man killed 14 people in a mass shooting in a bank and the majority of family shootings in Switzerland take place with army issued weapons. 
     
    Here are a couple of links you can look at if you want to verify this.
     
     
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    Buzzard   5/19/2009 6:14:44 AM

    Another side note of historical significance. Once upon a time, there used to be mass shootings in Israel by Palestinians. They would just stand up in a cafe and start spraying out bullets into the crowd. The  the Israelis did something smart. Did they regulate guns? No. Palestinians couldn't have them already. Did they outlaw guns? See above. They instead made it possible for any Israeli who chose to, to cary a concealed handgun. Lo and behold the next Palestinian who tried the "shoot the crowd" trick was promptly plugged by a few armed Isrealis and the practice halted. The Palestinians learned pretty quickly that the trick no longer worked and they moved on to bombing. 

    Now why do I assume that concealed carry in Isreal will now be blamed for suicide bombing?


    The Israelis are in a far more dangerous situation than Americans at home and those measures are more than justified there on a risk/return basis. As I have said I'm open minded about the need for self defence weapons in the US, but there remains no justification in my mind for owning a high capacity semi-auto.
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    Buzzard   5/19/2009 6:19:17 AM

    The two largest mass murders committed in the US were committed with box cutters hijacking airliners (3000 dead) and then there was the fertilizer spiced with Diesel fuel caper (180 dead). Plenty of the world's serial killers that have fetishes for knives. I suppose we should ban all of the above then?

    Which is why potential explosive fertilisers and the public possesion of knives is now heavily regulated in the US. Where is the "fertiliser lobby" and the "knife lobby" to defend American's of their God given right to have these things unhindered? They are not sexy enough toy's for tryhard soldiers to justify it apparently.
     
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