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Subject: whats the regular army for...?
kane    6/8/2008 3:50:55 PM
Ok I'm not American but there is one thing I've realized. American army personnel is above 1m.....there are about 150-200 thousand marines and they do all the fighting. Now take out sailors and airmen...what does the other hundreds of thousand men do? How and what are they trained for? Is their only job on back of the frontlines? Do they get less money....Why would anyone enlist for regualr army rather than marines if they want to be SOLDIERS?
I really doN't know much about the rest of the American army so please enlighten me.
 
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kane       6/8/2008 3:52:01 PM
ouch...sorry for double threads..
 
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wjr1       6/8/2008 8:18:58 PM
Kane, you cannot be that ignorant! The majority of any modern military is not at the pointy end but in logistics. During World War 2 the ratio of front line troops to logistics troops was on the order of ten to one.

To a great extent the Navy represents the water taxi and beans and bullets support for both the Army and Marines. The Marines (being light assault infantry) vary from the Army in the sense that they have virtually no support personnel compared to the Army yet they have aircraft mechanics, amphib mechanics (one of the old LVTP's would require hours of work per hour of use) and the like.

Now the Army is, to a great extent, an organization of heavy infantry and mechanized units. Lots and lots of folks fixing stuff and moving beans, bacon and rounds. And lots and lots of rotary wing aircraft (the second largest air force in the world, in fact) with all of the problems of keeping stuff going. And don't get me started on tanks, heavy arty, etc.

Now, if you chat up someone from the pointy end of 82nd, 3rd ID, 1st ID or the like and suggest that the USMC is doing all of the fighting you might wind up with your head on a pike. There are some very bad boys in the Army that are given a huge lever by technology supported by all those other guys and gals that sure seem to be "doing nothing".

That one tenth (or whatever it is now) on the pointy end represents the the effecting end of a system can kill any military on earth. The operative word here is "system". As the old saying goes: "Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics".

Mind you, this is from an old Marine.

Oh, BTW, I have no idea what the Air Force pukes do other than play good golf and push buttons!

Best,
wjr
 
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ArtyEngineer    Kane   6/9/2008 2:14:45 AM
My word son, you are gonna take a hammering on this one!!!!!  I thought you had learned a bit about the US military machine these last few years you have been posting here but I guess not.  Thatsw one of the most idiotic thread starts I have ever seen.
 
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xylene       6/9/2008 2:55:37 AM
Well I can see why there is confusion since it seems Marines are being used for what was traditionally US Army roles. It seems like we are using Marines to augment the US Army's smaller size after the Clinton cuts.
 
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Herald12345       6/9/2008 5:42:03 AM

Ok I'm not American but there is one thing I've realized. American army personnel is above 1m.....there are about 150-200 thousand marines and they do all the fighting. Now take out sailors and airmen...what does the other hundreds of thousand men do? How and what are they trained for? Is their only job on back of the frontlines? Do they get less money....Why would anyone enlist for regualr army rather than marines if they want to be SOLDIERS?
I really doN't know much about the rest of the American army so please enlighten me.

1. US tooth to tail ratio is huge. 10 maintainers to 1 shooter is not unusual though we are getting much better. I think it is 8 to 1 now.
2. Those maintainers repair and work on the second biggest war machine on the planet .
3. I RESENT the implication that the Navy is a taxi service. see how the world peace falls apart of there is no UNITED STATES NAVY to rule the waves and keep the thug regimes hemmed in.
4. Like many nations' militaries , the United States military, the Army especially is a stepping stone for those of our citizens who find that their government failed to provide them with their citizen's right to a good basic education and a stable social environment to find their place in the social compact. Thew Army provides trainingt for those smart enough to quickly adapt and learn, and in many cases provides good basic job skills. A bulldozer driver oir a truck mechanic in the Army translate into the civilian economy quite nicely. Besides the Army teaches you to  function in the corporate structure  and to give and take orders . The American power-elite is clueless about this ADVANTAGE, but the American middle and lower classes  understand this very well. This is a powerful recruiting incentive in a poor economy such as we have now.

Plus: much of the American people just love to fight when they have a righteous excuse. That helps. It hurts though, when the war in question turns out to be a questionable war.

Herald
 
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kane       6/9/2008 6:00:20 AM
hey calm down people....the American army is just too large. What I meant is that "why would I join the regular army if I want to be a soldier?"
Marines are the assault force...I could figure out that if there was a full-scale war the rest would also have to fight.I can figure that out.
I said EXCLUDE sailors and air force.

BTW most of the knowledge I have about American army is from hollywood, isn't that obvious? HOOOAAHH
I basically asked
 
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ArtyEngineer       6/9/2008 9:06:55 AM



Ok I'm not American but there is one thing I've realized. American army personnel is above 1m.....there are about 150-200 thousand marines and they do all the fighting. Now take out sailors and airmen...what does the other hundreds of thousand men do? How and what are they trained for? Is their only job on back of the frontlines? Do they get less money....Why would anyone enlist for regualr army rather than marines if they want to be SOLDIERS?

I really doN't know much about the rest of the American army so please enlighten me.


1. US tooth to tail ratio is huge. 10 maintainers to 1 shooter is not unusual though we are getting much better. I think it is 8 to 1 now.
2. Those maintainers repair and work on the second biggest war machine on the planet .
3. I RESENT the implication that the Navy is a taxi service. see how the world peace falls apart of there is no UNITED STATES NAVY to rule the waves and keep the thug regimes hemmed in.
4. Like many nations' militaries , the United States military, the Army especially is a stepping stone for those of our citizens who find that their government failed to provide them with their citizen's right to a good basic education and a stable social environment to find their place in the social compact. Thew Army provides trainingt for those smart enough to quickly adapt and learn, and in many cases provides good basic job skills. A bulldozer driver oir a truck mechanic in the Army translate into the civilian economy quite nicely. Besides the Army teaches you to  function in the corporate structure  and to give and take orders . The American power-elite is clueless about this ADVANTAGE, but the American middle and lower classes  understand this very well. This is a powerful recruiting incentive in a poor economy such as we have now.

Plus: much of the American people just love to fight when they have a righteous excuse. That helps. It hurts though, when the war in question turns out to be a questionable war.

Herald

Herald,
Regarding the highlighted, if that ratio is heading in that direction does it take into account the fact that the Higher echelons of maintenance are becoming more and more the responsibility of the original contractor.  In fact civilian contractor support is being pushed right down the line to the 3/4 level and occasion even 2nd echelon to use the Marine corps maintenance structure terminology?
 
Regards
 
Arty
 
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timon_phocas       6/9/2008 11:20:18 AM
Howdy Kane,

Thank you for your kind words about my Marine Corps. We Jarheads always appreciate it when someone recognizes the excellence of the Corps.

That notwithstanding, there is at least a partial answer to your in the name of the Marine Corps. It's the word "Corps." The USMC is a Corps sized armed service. The U.S. Army's XVIII  Airborne  Corps is larger than the Marine Corps , and  the Army has several Corps-sized commands.

If the U.S. has to fight a war against a great power, the U.S. Army will take the lead because we will need the kind of combat power that only the U.S. Army can deliver.

The USMC started in the age of sail powered navies. Their role was basically sniping from the fighting tops. When technology made this obsolete, the US Marine Corps set about finding ways to keep themselves essential to the U.S. They have, in a sense, been reinventing themselves every few decades. This reinvention process means that the Corps has sometimes encroached on "traditional" Army missions. This breeds  a healthy competition between the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps ties to do it faster and cheaper, the U.S. Army tries to do it better. It improves both services.   



 
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wjr1       6/9/2008 12:24:24 PM
Herald,

Relax, guy. As an old Marine if I didn't take a shot at the thirteen button boys it would be un-American.

You are right, though, in saying that the USN is both formidable and a critical in our current world of tin pot oil tyrants. Not forgetting the lingering stupidity of the PRC's bully boys. Those floating air bases are sure handy.

Best,
wjr
 
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Nichevo       6/9/2008 11:02:04 PM
Kane, as has been said, our tooth-to-tail ratio has been much lower than you might expect.  Please understand, we think this is a good thing.  In WWII, the Russians and Japanese had very high tooth-to-tail ratios, but in the end they had colossal casualty rates.  And while the Russians won, the Japs lost, so it does not guarantee victory.  What it guarantees is dead bodies of your countrymen.  Because it takes support personnel to make sure you have ammo.  To remove shrapnel.  To transport you to the front.  Essentially it is a matter of specialization and the division of labor.

The US doesn't like dead bodies (of its own countrymen), or running out of ammunition, so we are willing to pay the expense of more support personnel.

Hope that helped.
 
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Jimme    How bout the Navy?   6/10/2008 4:39:37 AM

I've always wondered if the Navy was perhaps over staffed. I know Carriers probably need heavy amounts of supporting crew but how about some of the other ships. Do other nations have as many crew per ship as the USN? I only ask because it seams lots of thing can now be automated. I know the DoD likes a certain measure of redundancy but is it really neccessary or is it more precautionary?
 
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kane       6/10/2008 9:29:32 AM
thanks people...even though I'm not a fan of most American policies there is nothing I can say about US's conventional fighting skills and the system in the army.
 
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xylene       6/10/2008 10:12:53 AM


I've always wondered if the Navy was perhaps over staffed. I know Carriers probably need heavy amounts of supporting crew but how about some of the other ships. Do other nations have as many crew per ship as the USN? I only ask because it seams lots of thing can now be automated. I know the DoD likes a certain measure of redundancy but is it really neccessary or is it more precautionary?


I hope the US Navy does not follow the lead of merchant fleets around the world and go to small crews and automating everything. I was on tankers of 300,000 dwt with only 20-26 men aboard. It's no big deal when everything is running smooth but it's not enough men to handle an emergency. I think there is too much automation on some navy ships.
 
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ArtyEngineer    Jimme   6/10/2008 11:46:38 AM


I've always wondered if the Navy was perhaps over staffed. I know Carriers probably need heavy amounts of supporting crew but how about some of the other ships. Do other nations have as many crew per ship as the USN? I only ask because it seams lots of thing can now be automated. I know the DoD likes a certain measure of redundancy but is it really neccessary or is it more precautionary?

Ability to perform damage control is very closely related to crew size.  Just because we can automate alot of things these days doesnt necessarily mean we should!!!!
 
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Herald12345    Arty reply.   6/10/2008 7:07:58 PM






Ok I'm not American but there is one thing I've realized. American army personnel is above 1m.....there are about 150-200 thousand marines and they do all the fighting. Now take out sailors and airmen...what does the other hundreds of thousand men do? How and what are they trained for? Is their only job on back of the frontlines? Do they get less money....Why would anyone enlist for regualr army rather than marines if they want to be SOLDIERS?

I really doN't know much about the rest of the American army so please enlighten me.



1. US tooth to tail ratio is huge. 10 maintainers to 1 shooter is not unusual though we are getting much better. I think it is 8 to 1 now.
2. Those maintainers repair and work on the second biggest war machine on the planet .
3. I RESENT the implication that the Navy is a taxi service. see how the world peace falls apart of there is no UNITED STATES NAVY to rule the waves and keep the thug regimes hemmed in.
4. Like many nations' militaries , the United States military, the Army especially is a stepping stone for those of our citizens who find that their government failed to provide them with their citizen's right to a good basic education and a stable social environment to find their place in the social compact. Thew Army provides trainingt for those smart enough to quickly adapt and learn, and in many cases provides good basic job skills. A bulldozer driver oir a truck mechanic in the Army translate into the civilian economy quite nicely. Besides the Army teaches you to  function in the corporate structure  and to give and take orders . The American power-elite is clueless about this ADVANTAGE, but the American middle and lower classes  understand this very well. This is a powerful recruiting incentive in a poor economy such as we have now.

Plus: much of the American people just love to fight when they have a righteous excuse. That helps. It hurts though, when the war in question turns out to be a questionable war.

Herald


Herald,

Regarding the highlighted, if that ratio is heading in that direction does it take into account the fact that the Higher echelons of maintenance are becoming more and more the responsibility of the original contractor.  In fact civilian contractor support is being pushed right down the line to the 3/4 level and occasion even 2nd echelon to use the Marine corps maintenance structure terminology?

 

Regards

 

Arty

Yes, Arty, it is bit sleight of hand. We are actually slimming down a bit as we re-organize ourselves to put more infantry and truck drivers out there; but you know as well as I do that the industrial logistics load doesn't actually change for the BIG BLUE MACHINE. Even though the guys working on that tank might be wearing Alliant Technologies overalls instead of digitized camo, the WORK is still there and it still has to be done.

Herald. 

 
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