Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
United States Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Obama promises to be a second Carter - so let's look at some of what Carter accomplished
Zhang Fei    4/20/2008 12:53:30 PM
(Quote) I had almost grown to admire some qualities about the man, but when senior citizen, former President James Earl Carter showed up in Panama on December 14 to gleefully hand over our vital strategic resource, the Panama Canal, to the leftist Panamanian government, possessing full knowledge that bellicose Red China was hiding in the jungle, it was a grim reminder that even handsome, globetrotting, Bible-thumping senior citizens are capable of committing senseless, dangerous acts against the best interests of their country and the cause of liberty. Jimmy Carter has always had a knack for this. One "holy" but foolish cause he championed as President and continues to champion today in Panama is the right to self determination - which shouldn't be a bad thing. Self determination as traditionally understood - meaning freedom within the law for individuals and complete sovereignty for nations (over their internal affairs) - is a noble cause. It is a solemn recognition that man possesses agency, and that each man is equal in the sight of God to govern that agency both as men and as nations of men. Defending this cause is a good thing. But Carter's interpretation of self determination presents a flagrant departure from the traditional model. His version goes like this: If an individual, organization, or nation leans hard to the political left, that person, group, or state, deserves the right to choose. If an individual, organization, or nation leans to the political right, then that person, group, or state does not deserve the right to choose. Or as put into practice by Carter - You good guys on the left get money, arms, positive media bites, and international favor - You bad guys on the right get no money, no arms, but however you do merit villainous media reviews, and harsh international sanctions. Defending this cause is a bad thing. And just in case you haven't caught on, this second interpretation of self determination reflects the Marxist model, the establishment model, and the U.N. model, but whichever, donEt call it the American or true model. Thus when it came to the Panama Canal, the communist government of Omar Torrijos merited the right to self determination; and the United States, the bullying capitalist, colonialist overseer, did not. However, in this case, few money and defense machinations against the United States, were necessary, just blabber about democracy, about us being an "occupying army" (Communist Agent Alger Hiss started that one), and then throw in the dishonest and illegal use of two different treaties by Carter - one for Panama, which gave the communists everything they wanted - and one for the U.S. Congress, which hid the betrayal of American interests and property to a Communist regime. Two decades later, in the presence of a new generation of citizens who knew little of this treachery, Carter has finally gotten his way, and shown up to bask in the bleakness of his diabolical victory: Self determination for leftist Panama, but really for Communist China; and betrayal of self determination to the United States, who now has one more major defense concern for the future imposed upon her. Never mind that the Panama Canal did not belong to Panama but to the United States (for nearly a century). We had purchased the Canal (free and clear) with U.S. money. We had built the Canal with U.S. money (and considerable loss of life). We had maintained the canal with U.S. money. We had paid exorbitant and unnecessary annual fees with U.S. money. We had for a long time bolstered the Panamanian economy via the purchasing power of US soldiers, creating, in essence, a welfare zone in Panama. And never mind, that Communism is the archenemy of true self determination. Law, loyalty, national defense, common sense - none of that mattered. Stupidity or Design? But Carter didn't limit the damage to Panama. His foreign policy plan during his four years in office led to many other similar "victories" for self determination. Thirteen nations fell into the Communist camp under his watch, or as some claim, with his aid. Was it ineptitude? Liberal Democrats, it seems, are always forgiven for their sins, no matter how dark. The scripted line on Jimmy Carter, which sounds like truth because it has been trumpeted so many times, was that Jimmy Carter was a good man who got in over his head. This may be so. But not everyone agrees; especially Former Nicaraguan President Anastasio Somoza, whose nation, he declared, was betrayed intentionally to communism by Democrat Jimmy Carter. Anastasio Somoza was known as the United States strongest ally and supporter of Western values in Latin America. During his presidency, for instance, he insured that Nicaragua never cast a vote contrary to that of the United States at the United Nations. One reason: although he was Nicaraguan born, Somoza was American educated. He attended school at St. Leo School in Florida, La Salle M
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Zhang Fei    Carter's role in installing Robert Mugabe   4/20/2008 12:57:29 PM

(Quote)

In April 1979, 64 percent of the black citizens of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) lined up at the polls to vote in the first democratic election in the history of that southern African nation. Two-thirds of them supported Abel Muzorewa, a bishop in the United Methodist Church. He was the first black prime minister of a country only 4 percent white. Muzorewa's victory put an end to the 14-year political odyssey of outgoing prime minister Ian Smith, the stubborn World War II veteran who had infamously announced in 1976, "I do not believe in black majority rule--not in a thousand years." Fortunately for the country's blacks, majority rule came sooner than Smith had in mind.

Less than a year after Muzorewa's victory, however, in February 1980, another election was held in Zimbabwe. This time, Robert Mugabe, the Marxist who had fought a seven-year guerrilla war against Rhodesia's white-led government, won 64 percent of the vote, after a campaign marked by widespread intimidation, outright violence, and Mugabe's threat to continue the civil war if he lost. Mugabe became prime minister and was toasted by the international community and media as a new sort of African leader. "I find that I am fascinated by his intelligence, by his dedication. The only thing that frustrates me about Robert Mugabe is that he is so damned incorruptible," Andrew Young, Jimmy Carter's ambassador to the United Nations, had gushed to the Times of London in 1978. The rest, as they say, is history.

That second election is widely known and cited: 1980 is the famous year Zimbabwe won its independence from Great Britain and power was transferred from an obstinate white ruler to a liberation hero. But the circumstances of the first election, and the story of the man who won it, have been lost to the past. As the Mugabe regime--responsible for the torture and murder of thousands, starvation, genocide, the world's highest inflation and lowest life expectancy--teeters on the brink of disaster after 27 years of authoritarian rule, it is instructive to go back and examine what happened in those crucial intervening months.

To understand the genesis of that oft-forgotten 1979 election, it is necessary to revisit Rhodesia's Unilateral Declaration of Independence in 1965, when the British colony joined the United States as the only territory in history to separate successfully from the British Empire without its consent. Five years earlier, in a speech to the South African parliament, British prime minister Harold Macmillan had warned that the "wind of change" was blowing through Africa. "Whether we like it or not," Macmillan said, "this growth of national consciousness is a political fact." Rhodesian whites would not stand for the British policy of "No Independence Before Majority African Rule," however, and in 1964 they overwhelmingly elected Smith premier. When the Rhodesian government reached an impasse with the British over conditions for autonomy, Smith, widely supported by the country's whites, declared Rhodesia independent. And so, on November 11, 1965, the sun abruptly set on another outpost of the British Empire.

The move was immediately condemned as illegal ("an act of treason") by the British government, the Commonwealth, and the United Nations. Independent Rhodesia was not recognized by any country; even apartheid South Africa sent no ambassador to Salisbury, the capital. Britain and the U.N. imposed economic sanctions, and many Rhodesians worried that an oil embargo would cripple their landlocked country.

Over the next decade there followed a series of failed negotiations between the two sides. The British demanded majority rule, but would consider at most a phased plan that would gradually bring a black government to power. Smith, whose Rhodesian Front party was consistently reelected, would have none of it. He spoke of Rhodesia's defense of "Western, Christian civilization" and out-maneuvered a succession of British prime ministers, who all had to contend with the embarrassing "Rhodesia problem." Somehow, this tenacious little former colony held out against the world's once-great British Empire, busting sanctions, increasing white immigration, and keeping domestic black political opposition at bay with a succession of authoritarian laws that effectively banned political dissent.

Smith's obstinacy played a role in emboldening--and radicalizing--his enemies. The refusal of the country's whites to accept black rule created the vacuum in which leaders like Robert Mugabe, of the Chinese-backed Zimbabwean African National Union (ZANU), and Joshua Nkomo, of the Soviet-supported Zimbabwean African People's Union (ZAPU), emerged. In 1972, these two organizations started a civil war, aiming to overthrow the white regime by force. ZANU and ZAPU viewed Smith as a mortal enemy, but they were hardly more pleas

 
Quote    Reply

bigfella       4/20/2008 5:28:27 PM
Surely you mean a third Carter? I believe Jimmy Bush is almost ready to vacate.
 
Oh, and congrats on the loving defence of Somoza. You can't make up stuff this surreal. At least you are consistent.
 
Let me guess, Rios Montt next? perhaps Mobutu Sese Seko or the Generals in Myanmar? Hows about Nixon's good freind Yahya Khan? Solid anti-communists all. 
 
Just a question, what exactly is the point of posting thread after thread on a forum where virtually everyone already agrees with you? Does it fill some psychological need for approfval from complete strangers? Are you afraid to have your ideas robustly challenged? (this makes more sense, given their 'quality'). There is a physiological equivalent to what you are doing. Hope you have a good supply of tissues.
 
Quote    Reply

Zhang Fei       4/20/2008 8:52:50 PM
Surely you mean a third Carter? I believe Jimmy Bush is almost ready to vacate.

Bush gave up the Panama Canal all over again? He pushed friendly dictatorships into becoming enemy dictatorships? You're going to have to try harder than that.

Oh, and congrats on the loving defence of Somoza. You can't make up stuff this surreal. At least you are consistent.
 
Somoza wasn't the most pleasant of individuals, but neither was Stalin when we allied with him to fight Hitler during WWII. And of course, neither was Daniel Ortega, the Communist who replaced Somoza with both Carter's and Communist bloc assistance.

Let me guess, Rios Montt next? perhaps Mobutu Sese Seko or the Generals in Myanmar? Hows about Nixon's good freind Yahya Khan? Solid anti-communists all.

They weren't great humanitarians, but they weren't nearly as bad as the Soviets, with whom we cooperated to fight Hitler. In an ideal world, we cooperate with good guys against the bad guys. In the real world, we cooperate with bad guys against even worse bad guys.
 
Just a question, what exactly is the point of posting thread after thread on a forum where virtually everyone already agrees with you? Does it fill some psychological need for approfval from complete strangers? Are you afraid to have your ideas robustly challenged? (this makes more sense, given their 'quality'). There is a physiological equivalent to what you are doing. Hope you have a good supply of tissues.

I hate to break it to you, but you're too lazy and stupid and too much of ideological fanatic to be capable of challenging anyone's ideas. The reason I post these items is to point out aspects of issues that I think are interesting. If you don't think they're interesting, please feel free to ignore them. Or, alternatively, post your favorite barnyard epithets and put downs of my intelligence. I don't care.

I just find it amusing that someone can so consistently post content-free vituperation against a complete stranger. I think a little Prozac might do you some good. If you're taking a depressant, take more. If you're taking a stimulant, you seriously need to to dial down the amounts you're consuming.
 
Quote    Reply

swhitebull    Don't Get Me Started on the Man Who Out-worsts Millard filmore as THE WORST EVER   4/21/2008 2:10:06 PM
from Jay Nordlinger, National Review
 

October 11, 2002, 9:00 a.m.
Carterpalooza!
Jimmy Carter, our ?model ex-president.?

By Jay Nordlinger, NR Managing Editor

EDITOR'S NOTE: Former president Jimmy Carter was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize on October 11, 2002. In the May 20, 2002, issue of National Review, and in an online column around the same time, Jay Nordlinger provided an alternative read on the Carter presidency, and post-presidency. For the print magazine piece click here.... The NRO column is reprinted below.

A ll right, I?ve got Carter on my mind, so look out. Why Carter? Didn?t he leave office in 1981 (the same day the mullahs decided to spring the hostages, lest RR send a few up their gazoo)? Yes, but he?s back in the news, yapping absurdly about the Middle East and getting ready to visit Castro down in Cuba (May 12 to May 17).



  

For several days, I rooted around in all things Carter, preparing for a piece that appears in the new NR (?There He Goes Again: Jimmy Carter, Our ?Model Ex-President??). I?m not done with our 39th prez — not nearly done — and I wanted to share some things with Impromptus-ites that I couldn?t quite get off my chest in the magazine. Up for a kind of Carterpalooza? I didn?t think so, but try a little of it anyway. The below items will be more or less at random, although I?ll try to impose a speck of order on them. If you have forgotten about Carter, you will be reminded.

I, personally, have always been sort of fascinated by the man (and his family, and his home environs). I suppose I?ve read just about everything significant ever written about him. (Does anyone know what the phrase ?Lordy, Lordy, Jim Jack Gordy? could possibly mean? If so, you are a fellow Carterologist.) I have followed Jimmy C. since the Democratic primaries of 1976. The other day, in conversation with someone, I described his chronicler Douglas Brinkley as ?a great admirer of Carter who?s not blind to his faults.? I suppose I?d describe myself as a great critic of Carter?s who?s not blind to his virtues.

Anyway, let?s Carter away.

For years, Carter has been a thorn in the side of presidents, acting as a kind of ?anti-president,? as Lance Morrow once put it in an essay for Time. You recall how Carter irked Clinton on Haiti and North Korea. His low moment, however, came during the run-up to the Gulf War, when he wrote members of the U.N. Security Council — including Mitterrand?s France and Communist China — urging them to thwart the Bush administration?s effort. Our government found out about it when the Canadian prime minister, Brian Mulroney, called the defense secretary, Dick Cheney, and said, ?What the . . .?? Some people actually allowed themselves to utter the word ?treason.?

Sometimes, Carter says he would never act at odds with the government; at other times, he talks about a higher law, a

 
Quote    Reply

PlatypusMaximus       4/21/2008 10:44:26 PM
...and now we face a Carter minus the wisdom...
 
Quote    Reply

swhitebull       4/22/2008 10:13:18 AM

...and now we face a Carter minus the wisdom...



I presume that was very very snarky sarcasm dripping venomously from your observation about the vaunted Carter "wisdom?" 
 
 
swhitebull
 
Quote    Reply

kensohaski       4/23/2008 9:46:29 AM
Nice article on Rhodesia...  Links work fine however...
 
Quote    Reply

appleciderus    An anecdotal story   4/24/2008 10:39:00 PM
I was shooting pool with a local Minister last week, when Carter was all over the news. The conversation around the table was about Carter in the news. This very tall Minister leaned over an eight foot table to take a difficult shot and said "I can't believe I voted for that bastard".
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy