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Subject: New Canadian Medium Brigade Group
Maple Leaf    3/22/2005 9:20:09 PM
I think Canada should refurbish its three brigade groups into full-scale medium-weight forces completely equipped with the LAV-III/Stryker combat vehicles and organized similar to the future US Army FCS-based Brigade Combat Teams. What does anyone else think?

Brigade Headquarters

Command Support Squadron:
-2 x Signal Troop
-Military Intelligence Troop
-Service Support Troop

3 x Combined Arms Battalion (based on current infantry battalions)
-Battalion Headquarters (command, ops, intel & RMP sections)
-Headquarters Company
- Signal Platoon
- Orderly Room
- Supply Platoon (HQ, Stores Section & Food Service Section)
- Transport Platoon (HQ, Cargo Section & Fuel Section)
- Medical Platoon (HQ, Unit Medical Station & 4 x LAV-III Amb.)
-Combat Support Company
- Recce Platoon (8 x LUVW Command & Reconnaissance)
- Mortar Platoon (6 x 120mm mortars in LAV-III MFSVs)
- Anti-Armour Platoon (6 x LAV-III TOW Under Armour systems)
- Direct Fire Support Platoon (6 x LAV-III Mobile Gun Systems)
- Assault Pioneer Platoon (4 x LAV-III Pioneer & 2 x LAV-III ABL)
- 3 x Medium Rifle Company
- Company Headquarters
- Sniper Team
- 3 x Infantry Platoon (4 x LAV-III MICV)
- Headquarters & Wpns Det (2 x C6 7.62mm machine-gun teams)
- 3 x Section (Section Leader & 2 x 4-man fire teams)

Cavalry Regiment (Reconnaissance & Surveillance)
- Regimental Headquarters
- Headquarters Squadron (same as combined arms battalion)
- Reconnaissance Suppport Squadron
- NBC Reconnaissance Troop (3 x LAV-III NBC Recce Vehicle)
- Electronic Warefare Troop (3 x LAV-III EW Vehicle)
- Tactical UAV Troop (4 x TUAVs)
-3 x Cavalry Squadron
- Squadron Headquarters (3 x Fennek Armoured Cars
- 3 x Recce Troop (8 x Fennek Armoured Cars)

Combined Artillery Regiment
-Regimental Headquarters (including Brigade FSCC attached to Brigade HQ)
-Headquarters & Services Battery
- Signal Troop
- Orderly Room
- Support Troop (supply, transport, maintenance & medical)
- Target Acquisition Troop
-General Support Battery (supporting cavalry regiment & brigade deep strike operations)
- Battery Headquarters
- 3 x Fire Effects Detachment (a Fennek Fire Effects Vehice each)
- Support Troop (same as HQ & Svc Battery)
- Artillery Troop (4 x truck-mounted HIMARS)
-3 x Close Support Battery (supporting combined arms battalions)
- Battery Headquarters
- 3 x Fire Effects Detachment (a Fennek Armoured Car each)
- Support Troop
- Artillery Troop (4 x LAV-III Denel 105mm SPHs)

Combat Engineer Squadron
-Squadron Headquarters (including ESCC at Brigade HQ)
-Service Troop
-Equipment Troop (dozers, dump trucks, cranes, graders, etc)
-Resource Troop (engineer stores, water purification & combat divers)
-2 x Field Engineer Troop

Brigade Service Battalion
-Battalion Headquarters
-Administrative Company (signal platoon, support platoon, UMS & orderly room)
-Logistics Company (supply platoon & 2-3 transport platoons)
-Maintenance Company
-Field Services Company (NBC Decontamination, Laundry & Bath, Postal & Finance platoons manned by Militia personnel)
-Military Police Platoon

Field Ambulance Unit
-Unit Headquarters
-Services Platoon
-2 x Medical Platoon/Advanced Surgical Centre - 40 bed short-term capacity (treatment section, surgical team, patient holding section, clinical support section, dental team)
-2 x Evacuation Platoon (12 x LSVW Ambulances)
 
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Eagle601    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   7/9/2005 4:26:36 AM
Why use Fennecks to do jobs LAV derivatives can do just as well? All you do is complicate logistics without any improvement in capability.
 
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interestedamateur    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   7/9/2005 7:22:34 AM
Clearly based on US Stryker brigades, with some refinements, such as the HIMARs. The Strker brigades have a full intelligence company at HQ level. Includes: analysis platoon, integration platoon, HUMINT platoon, weather team. You might want to consider beefing up your intelligence. It's a bit light on anti-tank weaponry - I'd be looking to get some Javelins in at Company level myself (separate from the Inf platoons). Prefer 6 or 8 weapons at arty battery level. I might also make TA a full battery in your arty btn; 1 platoon counterfire radar (i.e. with ARTHUR systems), 1 platoon UAV, 1 platoon sound ranging (HALO 2A). I'd go for LAV 4's (Piranha 4) - 25 tons versus 18.5 for LAV 3, but you get your 9 infantry, plus a turret on the vehicle with a 30mm cannon, and an extra 4 or so tons of armour which would help defeat RPGs. Much more power and protection, but can't transport them in a Hercules though. Being British we like our brigades to have a full engineer regiment rather than a Sqn. UK Battalions also have a pioneer platoon. Your logistic units are a bit light - go for a transport company and a supply company in your support battalion. British brigades have a logistic support regiment which has 2 transport Sqns and one supply sqn. Our close support medical regiments also have 2 medical companies. British brigades do however have 4 manoeuvre units (and often more) compared to your 3, so you might not want to go down this route. Couldn't see any anti-air or helicopters. Agree with Eagle on the recce LAVs. Or only keep one sqn for Fenneks and use it for deep observation SAS stylee. The new US light Brigades have one dismounted company in their Cav Regt - very useful for deep observation and long range arty targeting. Never happen 'cos of the expense etc.. but food for thought!
 
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interestedamateur    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   7/9/2005 7:38:07 AM
US structures are well known, but I thought you might be interested to see a UK brigade orbat for comparison: 4 Maneouvre Battalions Artillery Regiment (3 batteries) Engineer Regiment (1 comp for each btn plus eng support comp) Logistic Support Regiment (2 trans comps, 2 supply comp) REME Battalion (2 companies) Medical Battalion (2 companies) Recce Regiment (3 companies. No organic UAVs) Brigade HQ and Signals Company Light brigades combine the logistic, medical and REME (repair) units into one regiment. Please note that I have simplified this slightly, because each brigade has differences which I can't be bothered to show!
 
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seantheaussie    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   7/9/2005 6:44:50 PM
"""""""""" interestedamateur 4 Maneouvre Battalions Artillery Regiment (3 batteries) """"""""""""" less than a battery per maneouvre battalion? Unusual. How often does Canada deploy brigades compared to battle groups? If my impression of almost always battle groups is right the maxim train as you will fight suggests permanent battle groups with merely C&C brigade headquarters for when 2 or more battlegroups are deployed together.
 
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Ehran    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   7/9/2005 7:29:03 PM
since the guys came home from germany deployments are a btn or under typically for peacekeeping operations.
 
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Maple Leaf    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/3/2005 7:04:11 PM
The reason for the Fenneks is cost. The Coyote lacks commonality with the LAV-III anyway and a Fennek is a lot smaller, presents less of a target, requires only a 3-man crew rather then 4, and therefore would be cheaper. There is also a big argument that the Coyote is more of a stationary surveillance vehicle or observation post rather than a fast, stealth reconnaissance vehicle. I agree it is a strengthened Stryker brigade. That is the idea. The reason for the reduced artillery batteries and the lack of an air defence battery is simply lack of use. How often in peace support operations are these systems used. When is the last time Allied ground troops were ever threatened by enemy air strikes. The Allies rule the skies so why waste resources on air defence when the Army is lacking in so many more critical areas. Plus the HIMARS battery makes up for the smaller artillery batteries. I would slightly disagree with the combat service support issue. British brigades usually have a Brigade Support Squadron from the Division's Close Support Logistics Regiment, not the whole regiment. Likewise the EME Battalion has a close support and general support company. And only one close support medical squadron supports each brigade. The Canadian organization is similar, they just have mult-functional battalions. A close support service battalion and then a general support battalion in the support group. However, with the current Army Transformation these battalions are being combined into one. I agree the engineers should probably be upped to a regiment. The original option was having an engineer support squadron or regiment as part of the Role 3 support group. And more MI assets would be nice.
 
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interestedamateur    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/4/2005 9:24:45 AM
"I would slightly disagree with the combat service support issue. British brigades usually have a Brigade Support Squadron from the Division's Close Support Logistics Regiment, not the whole regiment. Likewise the EME Battalion has a close support and general support company." With regard to logistic support, the TOE of UK Armd and Mech Brigades is changing (since Dec 2004). Basically the old structure of giving a brigade a Log Sqn from the Divisional close support regiment is ending, and in future each brigade will have a Logistic Regiment of two Trans Sqns and one supply Sqn. Honest! The reason for this change is that Brigades are far more likely to deploy than divisions, so it makes sense to provide support at that level. You are quite correct about the structure of the REME regiments. The point is that each UK Mech and Armd Brigade has a full REME regiment. I can send you links for all this if you really want me to! How you decide to equip your brigades is entirely up to you! Are you a wargamer per chance?
 
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Lawman    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/5/2005 2:00:51 PM
It might be better to put together an ad hoc Brigade, i.e. have a number of infantry units, armour units (some with LAV-105 type, and some with a new MBT, for higher intensity ops). It would enable a composite Brigade, with the right balance of forces for the task. I like the HIMARS system, and it might be a good idea, allowing saturation fire, something not readily possible with normal artillery. I like the idea of a Canadian Stryker-type Brigade, though I am not sure how easily it would be supported. I think the whole concept of air transportability has to be thrown out, since there is no possibility of Canada having the 300+ C-130s needed. It also means having under-armoured vehicles, which are dangerous to use in combat. As for not bothering with air defence systems, I think it is very dangerous to lack that capability - if you find yourself up against an enemy with helicopters or light aircraft, they could easily survive an air war. The best fit might be the LAV-AD, with 25mm GAU-12, and Stinger missiles - good balance of capability, with the ability to engage ground targets as well. In addition, enemies are likely to start acquiring UAVs, and having the ability to engage them might be useful...
 
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seantheaussie    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/5/2005 10:25:53 PM
"""""""""""" Lawman In addition, enemies are likely to start acquiring UAVs, and having the ability to engage them might be useful... """""""""" Completely agree. UAVs will inspire the comeback of AAA which also have excellent dual use against unarmored targets.
 
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Jungle-Man    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/6/2005 12:17:05 AM
I still think that you need some heavy or at least medium armor to back all this force up. I mean I'm all for mobility but we should have gotten a replacement for the Leo-1 or at least gotten upgrade packages for them (God knows theres plenty around on the market), getting rid of our heavier armor altogether was a big mistake.
 
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Lawman    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/6/2005 5:51:14 AM
I agree Jungle-Man, having at least some modern armour is a good idea, even if it is used by reserve units (for cost reasons mostly). It might be possible to get, say, 250 Leopard 2 tanks from German stocks, much like Poland etc... They might be older, but would upgrade quite well, and are certainly better than nothing!
 
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Ehran    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/6/2005 5:47:36 PM
well in a pinch we could nationalize the german and british stocks they keep here for training the lads they ship over. i understand the germans have enough gear to make up a full armoured division and the brits have enough for a brigade. i'm sure we could work out some kind of financial deal after the fact hehe.
 
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Yimmy    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/6/2005 6:05:03 PM
"well in a pinch we could nationalize the german and british stocks they keep here" lol
 
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Lawman    RE:New Canadian Medium Brigade Group   8/6/2005 6:24:55 PM
If you need any Brits to man it, just ask...
 
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Maple Leaf       10/26/2007 12:54:57 PM
The Canadian Army has been throwing around the concept of "Affiliated Battle Groups" and "Optimal Battle Groups".  Sounds like the decision has been made to go with Affiliated Battle Groups, or at least to trial one.
 
I was reading last night about the European Unions Battle Group force.  This is a standing force of originally 13 1,500-member Battle Groups from various countries (more battle groups added since creation).  Two battle groups are at high-readiness at any given time and they are designed to respond to international situations within 48 hours and remain deployed without support for 30 days or 120 days with reinforcement. 
 
Battle Groups are obviously how most armies deploy, so why not permanently organize as such.  Here is just a thought on a Battle Group based brigade for Canada.
 
Canadian Medium Brigade Group
 
Brigade Headquarters
 
Command Support Group
CSG Headquarters
Signal Squadron
Military Intelligence Company
Military Police Platoon
Service Company
 
3 x Combined Arms Battle Group
CABG Headquarters
3 x Medium Rifle Company
1 x Medium Cavalry Squadron
1 x Combat Engineer Squadron
1 x Heavy Mortar Battery
1 x Service Company
 
General Support Group
GSG Headquarters
Supply Company
Transport Company
Maintenance Company
Engineer Support Squadron
Service Company
 
Health Service Support Group (organized as an Advanced Surgical Centre)
HSSG Headquarters
Treatment Platoon
Ward Platoon
Surgical Platoon
Clinical Support Platoon
Dental Platoon
Service Platoon
 
 
The Combined Arms Battle Group would be organized as follows:
 
Combined Arms Battle Group
CABG Headquarters & Signal Platoon
3 x Mechanized Rifle Company
   - 3 x Infantry Platoons (Platoon HQ, Weapons Section & 3 x Rifle Sections each with a LAV-III)
   - 1 x Sniper Team
1 x Cavalry Squadron
   - 3 x Direct Fire Support Troop (4 x Stryker MGS)
   - 1 x Anti-Armour Troop (3 x LAV-III TUA & 1 x LAV-III TCP)
   - 1 x Reconnaissance Troop (8 x Fennek LARV)
1 x Combat Engineer Squadron
   - 1 x Field Engineer Troop
   - 1 x Close Support Troop
1 x Heavy Mortar Battery ** (or artillery battery, that's a separate discussion)
   - Battery Commander's Party
   - Battle Group FSCC
   - 3 x FOO Party
   - 3 x Mortar Troop (3 x LAV-III 120mm Armoured Mortar System)
1 x Service Company
   - Personnel Services Platoon
   - Supply Platoon
   - Transport Platoon
   - Maintenance Platoon
   - Health Services Platoon
   - Military Police Section
 
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