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Subject: Deficiences in the us fleet
eldnah    2/5/2006 6:48:18 PM
Please indulge me a little. I was invited/drafted to be a LCDR during the Vietnam war as I had a necessary skill even though I had been invalided as a cadet at West Point tweleve years before. So, I was a naval officer, by necessity but developed a serious interst in naval matters. So, in context, I'll offer a non NWC approach. When I was a kid, 10,000 tons displacement was a "Real cruiser",It's now an Arleigh Burke 9,999.9999 ton destroyer. Okay, sematics are semantics. The OH Perry Frigates were/are still 4,000ton ocean escorts that are now being reserved, retired, sold or "Lost in translation." Their ostensible replacement is a 2,500-3,000 ton LCS. The marketeers at BMW said when they were defining their "Less than Bently high-performance models: with the concept "Form follows function". I'll offer a warship concept variation: Structure follows mission. I understand the need for Littoral Combat ships but with the US terrible dependent on the importation of overseas oil there is more important need for an open ocean escort, i.e. OHP replacementS to insure the maritime transit of oil and other necessities. My proposition is to bag the LCS for an new 4,500 tonish OH Perry replacement. It is critically important for the future of the US. Unfortunately the QDR apperars oblivious to this necessity.
 
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perfectgeneral    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/5/2006 11:11:45 PM
Navies tend to structure around the roles they are usually called to do rather than all the roles they might be called to do (should all hell break loose, say). I can imagine maritime patrol aeroplanes flying patrol over convoy shipping lanes while ASW surface and subsurface assets sweep periodically, but escorts for (even just) America's import and export shipping would require 'hot' wartime levels of frigates/corvettes. The idea of a just in case navy is hard to sell. Just ask the RN.
 
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EW3    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/5/2006 11:37:39 PM
The US dependence on oil supplied via tanker is actually easily handled by current assets. One should also consider that an LCS is an ocean going vessel. In fact it is a far better escort vessel than most Vietnam era escort vessels (I served on one). The GD design's flight deck is bigger than an AB's flight deck. It has speed, and is more stable in rough seas than the older frigates and far more sophisticated electronic suites. But more importantly, is that convoy escort is simply not a mission anymore. With global reach, we'd pound into the ground anyone that messes with us. For the next 20 years there is no chance of a cold war era matchup like we had with the Soviets. Have to ask, how did you get "invited to be an LCdr"?
 
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Iano_returns    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/6/2006 6:21:40 AM
We have some Type 22's and 23's if you're interested. 23s are very good at ASW and the 22s can command as well. Hell, we've been selling them to Romania!
 
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fitz    RE:Deficiences in the us fleet   2/6/2006 8:42:38 AM
Protect these tankers against what and where?
 
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eldnah    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/6/2006 9:48:14 AM
It appears given the US dependence oil; its transportation is a logical focus of attack. I rembering reading about the results of Germany's operation Drumbeat before Adm King instituted convoys for East coast and Caribbean shipping. Tankers today are 20 to 40 times the displacement of WWII era ships and the loss one would be more devestating now. Given the complexity of todays ships I can't see a program to knock out escorts with the speed necessary. The further from land defensive resources the greater the need for open ocean resources. A 9,400 ton Arleigh Burke appears expensive and overkill for the role and 2,800 ton LCS don't appear to have capacity for the job. On paper and with what has been available in the open press the Alvaro de Barzans seem to be the right fit. How to get drafted as an LCDR? It was US Navy policy then to match us up with the Annapolis class that graduated the same year we graduated from college. In 1970 the majority of my paired Annapolis class were LCDRs so that's the rank they gave us physicans. A few MDs with more experience were commisioned as CDR's as you were draft eligible till 35.
 
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fitz    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/6/2006 12:25:28 PM
Again I ask, where and from what? Identify a threat. Identify where that threat is likely to strike, then come up with a solution. Vaguely proposing a larger ship doesn't cut it. The massive Cold War fleet of 2nd class escorts was, for example, a response to the need to protect troop and supply convoys crossing the Atlantic to reinforce Europe from Soviet submarines. That threat no longer exists. So then, what is the threat to oil shipments, where is it, and how do you address it?
 
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jlb    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/6/2006 3:57:47 PM
Aren't the LCS supposed to have an ASW module?
 
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hybrid    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/6/2006 6:56:31 PM
Hmm eldnah I think you're thinking of the wrong target, its not the US that should be worried as much as other countries. Most of our oil isn't shipped in from the mideast (a good 1/3 to 1/2 of it is produced ourselves, another 1/3 or so supplied between canada and mexico and even to a lesser extent venezuela). For all of that US gasoline prices are hovering around $2.50 a gallon, to compare in most of europe its hitting over $6 and in India where I was just this december its over $5 per gallon just for diesel. The key critical areas to the rest of the world are the straits of hormuz currently and the straits of malacca. Both of those areas are littorals-like waters that cause problems for major surface ships the USN uses, hence why the LCS is actually quite a good idea.
 
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Iano_returns    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/6/2006 8:02:02 PM
Ooh ooh think we have some Invincibles coming up for sale soonish too. Could style them as escort carriers, organic air for convoy escort groups. Let you have them for hmm say a part exchange on 2 of those new CVNs? Keep one as an Argus replacement and change the 2 CVFs into an amphib, we might be onto something... Seriously though I'm jesting, the RN when the Invincibles "through-deck cruiser" CVSs were made was BUILT for ASW and convoy protection like you want. But the more productive approach is to identify the threat/problem then the solution. With the global nature of the USN as the only superpowers navy, with 12 CVBGs and loadsa ESGs (that have what is in effect the 2nd biggest carriers in the world as their assault ships), you could argue that you don't have to protect convoys against anything out there in the wide open oceans, you could just steam to your opponents coast and blockade him in, or pound him with TLAMs and naval air before going ashore. Perhaps with less than 50% of world naval power you had to be defensive, but now why bother? You're offence is so strong that it is in effect your defence. Why protect SO MANY convoys with SO MANY escorts when it may never happen, when you can just use your existing forces to remove 1 belligerent from the game?
 
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eldnah    RE:Deficiences in the escort   2/6/2006 9:11:12 PM
Let me offer a scenario. China makes a move on Taiwan. The US comes to the aid of Taiwan but does not attack the Chinese mainland. The US provides air and missile defense and interdicts any naval invasion forces. How would China respond? Certainly not by attacking the US mainland. A guerre de course against the US oil imports with their Project 093 and Han class nuclear subs is a low level but potentially serious asymetric response. I had up-to-date info on ocean reconassiance satellites "Many" years ago. I would think that today China has the ability to atleast match that level of techincal expertise. Even a second rate Han nuclear submarine can be positioned with the right intelligence to do a lot of damage. LCS's will have a optional ASW module. How many of these modules vs AA vs ASW vs SO modules will be available per hull? I think a large all purpose frigate as oppossed to a DDG or an LCS would be a better choice and I don't believe we can afford both. Just one opinion.
 
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