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Subject: ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class
capt soap    9/17/2005 12:55:11 PM
How would this fight turn out? the Iowa's 16 inch guns against the Yamato 18 guns? The iowa had radar,which one would sink the other 1 on 1.
 
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elclip1    Glorious    7/8/2009 10:07:58 PM

Herald, Halsey only had victories in the South Pacific...try as you might victory really counts for a lot.  Sorry, but whilst I acknowledge your many complaint about Halsey, I also acknowledge his many SUCCESSES...something you really need to try.

 

Eclip the précis I read gave Glorious two, literally, courses of action that would have let Glorious escape.  She couldn't have out distanced the Germans, but that isn't the same thing as saying the Germans could close the distance...instead Glorious chose a course of action that allowed the Germans to close to gun range.  It wasn't just a failure of aviation knowledge, it was a failure of NAVAL understanding...
 
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elclip1    Glorious    7/8/2009 10:29:39 PM
 
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Herald12345       7/9/2009 4:05:55 AM


Herald, Halsey only had victories in the South Pacific...try as you might victory really counts for a lot.  Sorry, but whilst I acknowledge your many complaint about Halsey, I also acknowledge his many SUCCESSES...something you really need to try.

Name a success THAT WAS HIS..
 
Eclip the précis I read gave Glorious two, literally, courses of action that would have let Glorious escape.  She couldn't have out distanced the Germans, but that isn't the same thing as saying the Germans could close the distance...instead Glorious chose a course of action that allowed the Germans to close to gun range.  It wasn't just a failure of aviation knowledge, it was a failure of NAVAL understanding...





INCORRECT, Acasta shows how the Glorious could have escaped and how Sprague at Samar DID escape. An attacker with cripples on his hands has to detach forces and reduce speed with part or all of his force to rescue damaged ships and men in the water. One torpedo hit reduced Scharnhorst to 21 knots. A better handled Glorious presumably with her Swordfish launched and hunting, could have made such a cripple and forced a disengagement before Glorious was ever in gun range. AIRPOWER is a frightening thing to ground troops or surface ships, when the enemy has it, and you don't. It hobbles your movement.and frees his.
 
Herald
 
 
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Leech       7/9/2009 5:12:10 AM
It is interesting about Pearl Harbor, that Japanis Navy, which was first to use air force and carriers as basics of her sea power, did not care about US aircraft carriers, and concentrated about catching US battleships, not carriers, in port.
 
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JFKY    Leech   7/9/2009 9:55:48 AM
I would not claim that the IJN did not care about the US CV's...it was as much by luck that they were absent that December morning...a week or so sooner or a day later and several of them would have been sitting in port with the BB's....
 
I don't know Herald, looks to me like Halsey won Guadalcanal and then the Solomons Campaign...unless you want to claim he WASN'T in Command in the South Pacific or that we lost in our advance from Guadalcanal thru the Solomons.  I'd call them victories, the Japanese sure acknowledged them as DEFEATS.
 
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elclip1    Glorious/Halsey   7/9/2009 12:48:45 PM
(Having trouble posting from my MAC - trying the PC)
 
In Winton's "Carrier Glorious", the German action report shows that Marschall held the Battlecruisers on their original heading for a while after spotting the enemy. He did this to allow the ships to raise steam for a high speed run. Once this was done, he turned toward Glorious. Making 26 knots and accelerating eventually to around 29 knots, Scharnhorst began firing at 28,000 yards making the first hit on the third salvo at about 14 miles.

By the time Glorious saw S&G the game was up. With cold boilers and no time to bring them on line, there was no chance to escape. The Carrier was doomed from the moment she was spotted by the German Group.


Halsey. I give him credit for the early actions in the war. His early raids in the South Pacific were good for moral, though of little real impact. The Doolittle raid could have gone better, but it accomplished the goals set for it.  Most accounts of the Guadalcanal action indicate that Halsey was a welcome boost when he relieved Ghormley. His willingness to mix it up and go in harms way was a sharp contrast to Ghormley and Fletcher too. 

If you've ever read Spruance's bio, you'd find that he was aghast at the lack of structure and discipline within Halsey's staff when Spruance took over the fleet before Midway. Halsey was no great thinker, that much is certain. 
His main focus seems to have been to attack the enemy whenever and wherever he found them. In 42, some of that was needed. Of course disaster was always a possibility with that approach. Halsey slipped in and back out of Pearl right after the attack and went looking for the Japanese fleet with Enterprise. Had he found them, he probably would have been destroyed and one of our few carriers lost. It's a good thing that he didn't find them, but he was a fighter.

Most agree that, eventually, the war just got to big and too complex for The bull.
 
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Herald12345    Beijng in the chair doesn't mean you get CREDIT   7/9/2009 2:07:14 PM

I would not claim that the IJN did not care about the US CV's...it was as much by luck that they were absent that December morning...a week or so sooner or a day later and several of them would have been sitting in port with the BB's....

 

I don't know Herald, looks to me like Halsey won Guadalcanal and then the Solomons Campaign...unless you want to claim he WASN'T in Command in the South Pacific or that we lost in our advance from Guadalcanal thru the Solomons.  I'd call them victories, the Japanese sure acknowledged them as DEFEATS.

Fletcher-Midway us the example.
 
Cactus Air Force, Marines, and Army won the island. The FLEET won the naval battle by dying for it. Halsey was an actual command cypher; as in a big fat ZERO.
 
 
That idiot, Halsey, had neither.
 
 
A disordered mind produces chaos. Halsey was not only disordered in his mind, but also incredibly stupid and vain. 
 
Herald

 
 
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JFKY    Sorry Herald   7/9/2009 2:55:33 PM
More than a command zero...he actually visited Guadalcanal, unlike Ghormley...he was an active commander, and I notice you neglect to mention the advance up the Solomons Chain.
 
That is not to say that Halsey was a GREAT commander, but rather to dispute he was  BAD commander...he may not have been Grant, but neither was he McClellan, put him in the Meade category, OK, but not spectacular.
 
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Herald12345    Beijng in the chair doesn't mean you get CREDIT   7/9/2009 3:40:09 PM

(Having trouble posting from my MAC - trying the PC)

Same here. we are in the muddle of a PRC Bandit Cyber attack so it may be your server undergoung a DoS attack.

In Winton's "Carrier Glorious", the German action report shows that Marschall held the Battlecruisers on their original heading for a while after spotting the enemy. He did this to allow the ships to raise steam for a high speed run. Once this was done, he turned toward Glorious. Making 26 knots and accelerating eventually to around 29 knots, Scharnhorst began firing at 28,000 yards making the first hit on the third salvo at about 14 miles.

What was the wind direction then? That is important because surface ship tactics against carriers was to get to windward of them and stay  there to leep the carrier from making a turn into the wind to launch aircraft.

By the time Glorious saw S&G the game was up. With cold boilers and no time to bring them on line, there was no chance to escape. The Carrier was doomed from the moment she was spotted by the German Group.

No CAP and nobody posted in the observation top, nobody monitoring the German signals guard channels are still puzzlers to me.. The problem was as I understand it, the S&G smoke appeared and D'Orly Hughes detached one of his destroyers to take a look. He didn't order someone aloft into observation until it was too late to take a gun director look? No alert five aircraft as well means that if that captain had  survived there would have been two court martials at Scapa Flow. I know a pilot commanding a cerrier in those waters;  seeing smoke would be very nervous, and would have turned into the wind and launched something, even if was a Hurricane to get a look.  Yes, I know the situation may have not looked that desperate on paper, but this was an evacuation after a defeat. It was that desperate.     

Halsey. I give him credit for the early actions in the war. His early raids in the South Pacific were good for moral, though of little real impact. The Doolittle raid could have gone better, but it accomplished the goals set for it.  Most accounts of the Guadalcanal action indicate that Halsey was a welcome boost when he relieved Ghormley. His willingness to mix it up and go in harms way was a sharp contrast to Ghormley and Fletcher too. 

Fitch and Fletcher were raiding, too. What were they? Chopped liver? Admiral Hoover, one of our better naval strategists and a decent carrier task force commander under Spruance during the Kwajalein operation, wasn't that impressed with the "Bull's" results or the Bull either. He wanted the jerk court martialed.......twice.
 
If you've ever read Spruance's bio, you'd find that he was aghast at the lack of structure and discipline within Halsey's staff when Spruance took over the fleet before Midway. Halsey was no great thinker, that much is certain. 
 
Not surprising. Spruance never hated anyone but he sure disliked Miles Browning as a professional.  Notice that Spruance never criticized the person; he analyzed the mistakes.

His main focus seems to have been to attack the enemy whenever and wherever he found them. In 42, some of that was needed. Of course disaster was always a possibility with that approach. Halsey slipped in and back out of Pearl right after the attack and went looking for the Japanese fleet with Enterprise. Had he found them, he probably would have been destroyed and one of our few carriers lost. It's a good thing that he didn't find them, but he was a fighter.

Brawling is not how you use airpower. The metaphor  in boxing is jab, jab, jab. Cut him up, and then knock him out  This was actually a lot of what Fletcher tried to do, as a fleet commander and makes him a good admiral. Geiger, Woods, Mulcahy, all tried to do the same.at Guadalcanal.

Most agree that, eventually, the war just got to big and too complex for The Bull.

It was already too complex at Jutland. I relooked that battle. I damn Beatty far more, and I have a lot more respect for poor John Jellicoe. He was actually a GREAT admiral foiled by an incompetent staff and insubordinant subordinates who refused to follow Jellicoe's battle instructions (especially contact reports). 
 
Spruance had a staff after Midway and he used it.  There were Typhoon procedures, CAP procedures, ASW procedures, reconnaissance SOPs, a plan of movement, a plan for replenishment. Detailed instructions that the staff worked out went out. That is a BATTLE DRILL. Even the Captain Queegs could look up what to do in case you ride light in ballast and the fleet weather report says Sea State Seven.         
 
Spruance always made his intentions clear. 
 
Example: Scott would have been in command and in radar clear waters to the west of Savo Island; if  somebody competent had delegated  the staff work and ordered the staff to issue a battle plan. That was Halsey's foul up. He chose the wrong admiral, and didn't staff support him or give him clear instructions (Turner doesn't escape censure for these mistakes either.)  You don't scrape up a sandlot team and send them in, and cross your fingers. Arleigh Burke trained his division in battle procedures and instructed his captains how to fight. Every naval disaster we suffered was the result of amateurism at the TOP. 
 

Herald
 
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Herald12345    Beijng in the chair doesn't mean you get CREDIT   7/9/2009 4:03:44 PM

More than a command zero...he actually visited Guadalcanal, unlike Ghormley...he was an active commander, and I notice you neglect to mention the advance up the Solomons Chain.

 Who cares? Vandegrift was ON THE GROUND. As for active command I just gave you an example of how active Halsey was. he couldn't lead or manage worth a damn.

That is not to say that Halsey was a GREAT commander, but rather to dispute he was  BAD commander...he may not have been Grant, but neither was he McClellan, put him in the Meade category, OK, but not spectacular.
 
Not even McClellan was Halsey. McClellan could PLAN and he could staff.  I also don't like that cheap shot against Ghormley. The man was mentally ill and suffered from acute exhaustion.  He did far better than the gutless coward Fredendall did.  
 
 
Notice the lie that Halsey wrote to Nimitz to explain how he fouled up the Santa Cruz?  Halsey further screwed up staff and communications pre-battle as well and did not pay attention to Op 20_G estimates of enemy forces present? No wonder Kincaid called it absolute CHAOS while he was being mauled at Santa Cruz.. Strictly amateur hour.

Herald
 
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JFKY    Oh I see Ghormley gets a pass...   7/9/2009 4:18:15 PM
Dood, you're being silly Halsey is bad, but the metnally ILL get a pass...good to see that Herald has a consistent policy for grading command.    Mental illness=pass, but God Help you if you don't measure up to herald standards.  Sorry, that's silly.   BTW that wasn't a "crack" at Ghormley...HE NEVER VISITED GUADALCANAL.  It's the truth...Also the first I ahve heard of Ghormely being  mentally ill, he had a badly absessed tooth...was working too hard, sitting in the heat, got depressed, but never heard anythng about him being bonkers.
 
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elclip1    Glorious, Halsey and Jutland   7/9/2009 5:03:07 PM

(What was the wind direction then? That is important because surface ship tactics against carriers was to get to windward of them and stay  there to leep the carrier from making a turn into the wind to launch aircraft.

Winton's book indicates that the German group stayed to the Windward side. As the author put it: As was said in the days of sail; The Germans "had the weather gauge"

Fitch and Fletcher were raiding, too. What were they? Chopped liver?

Fitch got torpedoed and ran aground too, so no one is perfect.  Actually his contributions to the war after his sea battles were considerable. Fletcher got a rap against him for the "Bug out" at Guadalcanal (fairly or unfairly) and also oddly got labeled after Eastern Solomans as being "Overly cautious", which is odd, because he more or less blindly attacked everything at Coral Sea and Midway.  

Suffice to say that some had longer leashes with King and Nimitz than others.

Example: Scott would have been in command and in radar clear waters to the west of Savo Island; if  somebody competent had delegated 

 

Agreed - Scott should have been in command that night.

Jutland is a WHOLE different ballgame, but yeah, Jellico should have relieved Beaty.    IMHO the best commander that day was Hipper.

 
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Herald12345    Save for Savo Island......    7/9/2009 5:28:46 PM
Name me a subsequent naval disaster you can lay at Ghormley's feet?
 
Cape Esperance and Eastern Solomons were VICTORIES.
 
Santa Cruz was a DEFEAT.
 
First Guadalcanal was a DEFEAT.
 
Tassafaronga was a DEFEAT.
 
The brawls up the ladder were exactly that, BRAWLS.
 
Kula Gulf, Vella LaVella, Honaryu, were nothing if not messes for which Halsey deserves blame.
 
Lee won on his own.
 
Merrill won on his own.
 
Burke won on his own.
 
Ainsworth won on his own.
 
Even the Raid on Rabaul and Bismark Sea was in the hands of other men. (Kenney and Frederick Sherman)

Halsey gets no credit, nothing!
 
Herald
 

 
 
 
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elclip1       7/9/2009 5:57:59 PM


Halsey gets no credit, nothing!

Herald
 
 
I am not sure I understand why Halsey gets the blame for defeats at the hands of men whom he commanded, but no credit for victories at the hands of men whom he commanded.   Seems fairly inconsistent to me. 

 
He sends in Wright at Tassaforga and that defeat is Halsey's doing
He sends Lee in and it's Lee's victory

Hummm 
 

 





 


 
 
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JFKY    Herald   7/9/2009 6:55:06 PM
Kula Gulf, Vella LaVella, Honaryu, were nothing if not messes for which Halsey deserves blame.
EXCEPT, they were all a part of SUCCESFUL Tri-Phibious Campaign that advanced American Forces up the Slot and depleted the Japanese Imperial Navy, it's light forces and it's air forces...so however you may fault the TACTICAL Level, at the operational and strategic level it's all a "win." 
 
And having read Japanese Destroyer Captain, I don't believe the Japanese consider them "victories," so I'm not sure if I'd let you get away with calling them "messes."  Or if they WERE messes, what do you mean, by that?  In no case did the Japanese disrupt the US forces invading Bougainville or the like...if by "messes" you mean they were confused night actions, well here's a clue...IT WAS WAR-AT NIGHT- BY DEFINITION THEY ARE "MESSY."  So please define "messes" and ask yourself if you aren't expecting far too much out of ANY commander to fight a neat night action....Finally it wasn't until the later stages of the Solomons Campaign that US units got to operate as UNITS, Burke's drilling wasn't because Burke was a GREAT Commander, they got to drill because for once they had the time to do so!  Prior to this US Naval Forces had been committed in ad hoc task groups with little chance to train and shake down.  You confuse a lessened crisis situation with a command decision.
 
And Eclip hits it exactly...IF Scott is at Halsey's feet, THEN Lee is also at Halsey's feet.  Can't have it both ways, subordinates lose, Halsey's fault, subordinates win, it's Halsey's credit.
 
Your starting to get a little silly here with Halsey gets nothing...and yet the mentally ill (in your book) Ghormley gets a pass?  What is he some relative of yours or what?
 
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