ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class

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Charles99 6/13/2009 10:25:32 PM

I have one question regarding the Yamato-- what was the reason for the 6.1 mounts? They originaly had four, but they were vulnerable due to potential hits on the turrets/magazines, and would be useless at most ranges the Yamato would be fighting at. It seems almost like a retreat to the older pre-dreadnought mixed battery designs.

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Slim Pickinz quick question 6/14/2009 1:59:36 PM

A question for Herald....is your information on the accuracy of Iowa gunfire based on a constant bearing between the two ships, or does that accuracy decrease when they are maneuvering in battle?

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Herald12345 6/14/2009 4:11:11 PM

A question for Herald....is your information on the accuracy of Iowa gunfire based on a constant bearing between the two ships, or does that accuracy decrease when they are maneuvering in battle?

As is true for any maneuvering objects a radical change in track means you have to reacquire or recompute. Optical takes longer as you have to use some kind of interferometry to get a range and then you have to correct for atmosphere altered ballistics as well as compute rate of target movement. Radars with direct time pulsing that can go into an analog calculator gives you a range solution in seconds. Then you just have to compute target velocity for deflection and VOILA. That one minute difference can be a killer. Chasing shell splashes doesn't work as well to throw off track solutions when the other guy has radar ranging on you.

The Iowa's accuracy was for when they had a radar solution on you. It was all or nothing. If they fell back on optics their gunnery was no better than anyone elses'.^1. Hovered around 10%-15% I think.

Herald

^1 Despite PoW which was untrained and Hood which was end on aspect against Bismark and thus whose straddles were long axis, British battleship gunnery tended to be very good about, 15% on average. You needed the Ford computer to push it into the 30% range because deflection was always the hard component to estimate. More misses were caused by walkoff than ever by longs or shorts from what I've read in the record..

Herald

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JFKY I believe the secondary battery 6/15/2009 9:59:11 AM

was to deal with lighter vessels, accompanying the enemy battleships, such as cruisers.

The US hit it right with the elimination of secondary weapons, and focusing solely on the big gun and the Dual-Purpose Gun, the 12.7cm L/38. It allowed the US battleships to engage destroyers, and a/c and the like, without adding more top weight and complexity.

Herald why do you like HMS Vanguard so much? Serious, non-threatening question. The Wiki entry on it gives it armed with 5.25" DP Gun. Wasn't the 5.25" with its 80 pound shell too heavy for rapid fire, manually loaded? It just seems its DP armament is sub-standard? Or did the Vanguard have some form of assisted loading that made the 80 pound shell more usable?

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Herald12345 6/15/2009 10:05:46 PM

She was well built, had a good armor scheme, good propulsion and could make 26 knots in Sea State Four. She carried a mix of British and US radars and gun directors. She used the inferior RN Type 10 Fire Table analog fire director computer and, its claimed she used a semi automatic ram assist for her 5.25' guns though I've never seen thus sourced authoritatively. That was the worst feature of the design, the 5.25's.

Herald

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elclip1 When and where 6/19/2009 8:24:45 PM

Given the large number of variables involved, simply trying to make the case for either ship type winning a one on one match almost doesn't make sense. I personally like to ponder what Yamato might have done had she either:

A) Been deployed to Guadalcanal instead of Kirishima.

B) Actually run into task force 34 in the San Bernardino Strait.

In the case of the former, you would have had the closest thing to a one on one, had the battle unfolded as it did the night USS Washington sank Kirishima. While not an Iowa, the Washington is a fair stand in for one. I submit that had the events of that night unfolded the same with only the swap of Yamato for Kirishima, the outcome might not have been dramatically different, with the exception that South Dakota would have been pummeled even worse than she was. If Washington caught Yamato unaware at the same range as she did the Kirishima, she would have wrecked the big ship's upper works, bridge and directors. It would have been ugly. With no DD's around to finish her off, Yamato might have lived to see another day however.

In the other scenario, had the center force found task force 34 waiting in the strait, it would have been very ugly. Yamato, Kondo, Haruna and Nagato would have faced off against Iowa, New Jersey, Alabama and Washington. Both sides would have had a similar number of destroyers and cruisers. Presumably, Halsey would have included a couple of carriers to support the big ships as well.

I am thinking that the results would have been very similar to what happened at Surigao Strait. Worn down by torpedo attacks, the battleships would have run into four US BB's capping their T. With air support, it seems unlikely that any of the Japanese fleet would have survived. They may have managed to deliver some hits and damage, but likely, it would have been a route.

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quasi1 elclip1 6/21/2009 7:38:56 AM

Got back today. At last a reasonably impartial response. Am working on the numbers now for others, but Guadacanal was what Yamato had been designed for and in fact had been sent, but was too late and turned around.

Yamato was designed to fight multiple Battleships and to take punishment from large shells, Torpedoes dropped from were it's Achilles heel.

Washington had the same radar as Iowa (MK13) albeit not as modern, Washington's Captain, was trained in radar and trained his crew, yet at 7000y and about 76 shots later had only Hit Kirishima 6 times. Kirishima was a WW1 battle cruiser that had been modernized for WW2 but was still not up to the standard of a real Battle ship. Kirishima fired 11 inch guns and its turrets were loaded for shore bombardment.

If Yamato had been in this battle in place of Kirishima, South Dakota would have been wrecked and Washington would have had a fight on its hands.

This is my argument, there are too many variables to say which ship would win between Yamato and Iowa and to say that Iowa would win hands down is just absurd.

Up until 1944 the Americans believed that Yamato was around 45k, so the captain of the Iowa would be working on this knowledge. He would want to close the distance and secure his immunity zone (an estimate at 45k around 25ky to 30ky) as quickly as possible(he has the speed but he does not know it) He has the edge on fire control (but he does not know it) Battleships have a limited amount of ammunition so he is probable not going to start shooting until he is within his immunity zone????. Yamato has been designed to shot a great distance and there is a good chance that its captain is going to start shooting as soon as he feels he has a solution. His first salvo's will more then likely be off (maybe). Now all the big variables start.

The Iowa has STS decaping armour, but the Yamatos shell still weighs 3120lbs,even decapped it is still a devastating weapon and is dangerous in the water near the other ship. The Iowas 2700lbs shell is an excellent projectile, but cannot penetrate the Yamatos vital areas between 25ky and 30ky. The Iowa can hit the Yamato more times than the Yamato can hit the Iowa due to Superior fire control, but the Yamato is designed to take punishment from another Battleship. If the Yamato can hit the Iowa fron 35ky the shell will penetrate the deck and it will do damage to the side armour.

I cannot say which ship would win and I have better things to do then list a whole lot of numbers (but if you want them!)

If these two ships were to stand at 20ky to 25ky and just shoot shells at each other (oh what a sight) It is my belief and this is to answer the Yamato, Iowa debate that, just by weight of shell, subdivision and armour, Yamato would win. Under battle conditions and what was known about ether ship in 1942 to 1944 is a different story.

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quasi1 elclip1 6/21/2009 7:43:08 AM

The 6.1 guns were taken from a canceled heavy cruiser, I believe they had them there and thought"this will save time and its a big secondary gun. (which it was) Nothing more nothing less and you have admit, they look realy god above the 18in turrets.

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quasi1 elclip1 6/21/2009 7:51:10 AM

The HMS Vangaurd, was for the English a well balanced design based on all their experience gained during the wars, but still controlled by budget. If the Iowa was put up against the Vangaurd, then my money would be on the Iowa.

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Herald12345 Let's take you apart. 6/21/2009 11:44:23 AM

Rejected. The Yamato was designed to stand in line of battle in a Pacific Tsushima or Jutland.

Excerpt....

Excerpt 2....

Example of how Japanese battle...

Yamato was designed to fight multiple Battleships and to take punishment from large shells, Torpedoes dropped from were it's Achilles heel.

Already stipulated and known but the WHY that torpedoes were its weakness you ignore. I already noted that the armor brick was surrounded by one of the worst float bubbles ever designed. When a few rents and holes bow and stern sink you its tome to find the naval architects who designed that ship and feed them to the sharks.

Sinking a Yamato described....

Mistakes off the bat.

-Kirishima was equipped with 14 inch guns and her ordnance was armor piercing. She was hit at least nine times and probably more by sixteen inch out of the barrage Washingtojn fored. Not all of Washington's salvoes were aimed at her.

Source 1....

USS Washington Action Report....

Note the opening ranges to first target, a destroyer......18,500 yards. Note the result. Third salvo.

If Yamato had been in this battle in place of Kirishima, South Dakota would have been wrecked and Washington would have had a fight on its hands.

South Dakota was self wrecked and Washington did have a fight in her hands. If both Americans had performed to Washington specs the fate of a Yamato would be a major question mark.There was enough air power at Henderson field to make this a very ifft proposition for a slowly sinking Yamato, hence why the Jaoanese refusal to risk her in this type of mission.

This is my argument, there are too many variables to say which ship would win between Yamato and Iowa and to say that Iowa would win hands down is just absurd.

Not so. The post battle assessments show us clearlt what the likely outcomes would be.

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