I swear this forum drops random words. *sigh* Must reread before clicking... Should have been written as "kirov's missiles" and "carrier plane that" in their respective places.

The first thing that popped into my mind while reading this thread is the real lack of knowledge there is regarding Soviet Navy doctrine and tactics for their surface fleet. The Kirov could take on and defeat any ship except a carrier in a 1v1, it wouldn't even be close. The problem with the Tico is that it is not an offensive weapon against ships, the Tico is a ground attack, air attack, air defense weapon. It is not nor has ever been designed to take on other warships without air support. The match would be simple, the Kirov would close to within 50 miles before firing its missles. The tico would have about 24 seconds to intercept each missile fired. That means the tico must not only detect, but track, target, launch, and kill each incoming missile in 24 seconds. Would not happen, the Kirov has some of the very best Electronic Countermeasures in the world on a surface ship, and the missiles are all sea skimming. It is unlikely the Tico would get more than 10 seconds to kill any one missile fired at a range of 50 miles from the Kirov, the missiles are too fast, sea skimming, and oth detection would be ineffective with the Kirov 50 miles away. The problem with this scenario is that you are facing a ship designed to destroy other ships against a ship not designed to destroy other ships at all.

> Would not happen, > the Kirov has some > of the very best > Electronic Countermeasures > in the world on a > surface ship, Specifically, how does this contribute to Kirov’s offensive antiship mode against Ticos?! Kirov: Today’s Yamamoto for Russia. If she ever leaves port in anger, the fish will enjoy their new reef. v^2

It would make it difficult for the tico to pinpoint the position of the kirov over the horizon. Over the horizon detection would be very important in a 1v1 engagement. This would allow the Kirov to close the range on the Tico before striking. Range would matter in this fight, your talking about hypersonic missiles with excellent guidence on the Kirov vs obsolete subsonic missiles on the Tico. Remember, even today's Tico class uses the block I version of the harpoon missile, the guidence was modern in the 80s, but against the Kirov of today it is unlikely the Harpoon would get close enough to find the ship before being blown out of the sky. The Tico has ECM too, I am not sure if it would fully utilize it though, seems it could work against the Tico just as much as it would for the Tico, mostly because the Tico would want to stay hidden right up until it is prepared to shoot. Still today, despite its problems many experts in the world consider the Kirov to be one the most powerful surface combatant in the world in a shootout, it has very good air defense capability, very good anti-submarine defense, but mainly it is designed to destory enemy ships. Against a Carrier Strike Group of the US Navy, the effectiveness without massive air support from ground based fighters and bombers is questionable, but against a surface task force, like what you might get from Europe or jJapan, the ship would be a major challange for the West.

Kirov: Today’s Yamamoto for Russia. Russian warship = Japanese admiral. Um - Where's the connection?

Is that a wah?

> It would make it difficult for > the tico to pinpoint the position > of the kirov over the horizon. Kirov would radiate like a supernova, getting a fix via Tico’s onboard sniffers shouldn’t be a problem. Tico’s future UAV kit could also assist. I don’t know Kirov’s actual ability to detect Tico’s emissions when Tico is on a warfooting. Certainly Kirov’s helicopters might help her locate Tico, though Tico could dispatch them pretty quickly and alter course. > your talking about hypersonic missiles > with excellent guidence on the Kirov > vs obsolete subsonic missiles on the > Tico. I don’t know how “excellent” or not the guidance is, but the missiles sure are fast. I also don’t know what we know about defeating them. I wouldn’t bet against us based on our continuing intelligence and surveillance work and our custom of trading large under the table payments of greenbacks for information. > Remember, even today's Tico > class uses the block I version > of the harpoon missile, the guidence > was modern in the 80s, but against > the Kirov of today it is unlikely the > Harpoon would get close enough > to find the ship before being blown > out of the sky. I believe that all Harpoons have been removed from Ticos though some tubes remain. We’re utilizing Toms and Standards for surface to surface engagements exclusively last I heard. And Kirov’s onboard e-suite and C4I utilizes what era technology? Not to mention it hasn’t been continually updated like we’ve done with the Ticos. > Still today, despite its problems > many experts in the world consider > the Kirov to be one the most powerful > surface combatant in the world in a > shootout, it has very good air defense > capability, very good anti-submarine > defense, but mainly it is designed to > destory enemy ships. Hey, many experts still consider the Oscar to be one heck of a dangerous submarine against CVN groups. I happen not to agree with them in the present context. Yes on paper Kirov is a deadly ship-killer. However her crews don’t exercise very often and there are a lot of reports, including from Russian sources, that the condition of Kirov’s systems are in the same state as the rest of the navy, i.e., unreliable and subject to failure after only a few hours of being powered up. The Russians address this issue by duplicating systems but once the back ups are toast where do you turn? Again, plenty of reports suggest the Russians have to return to port in order to effect repairs, Kirov doesn’t carry adequate replacement parts or trained technicians during cruises. > against a surface task force, like > what you might get from Europe or jJapan, > the ship would be a major challange for > the West. I disagree for the reasons I’ve stated. Kirov would become a reef one on one vice Tico unless Tico drew bad luck or a poor skipper. v^2

Er, that shoulda been “Yamato.” My bad. v^2

I know. I couldn't resist. :-))

Considering the ship has been commissioned for only 7 and half years, I wouldn't consider it obsolete yet. Keep in mind the only Kirov in active duty today is the Peter the Great, the Northern Fleet flagship, which first put to see in 95 and was commissioned on April 18, 1998. The last time the ship was in drydock was April 2004 until August 2004, where several systems were upgraded. Prior to the drydock, it was reported an Admiral in the navy said the ship was in bad shape, this was later found to be false, and the admiral was playing politics to get more money to buy more ships. During exercises early last year it was reported that a UK captain observing the exercises noted the rumors about the decline of the Russian Northern Fleet do not appear accurate. There were 8 ships involved in those exercises, centered around the Peter the Great. The Peter the Great has the following: 64 AS-N-9 Gauntlet Missiles 94 SA-N-20 Gargoyle Missiles 192 SA-N-11 Grisom Missiles 20 SS-N-19 Shipwreck Missiles I don't know how the Tic wins the battle, it has fewer Helo's, so I basically took the Helo out of the equation. You mentioned it yourself, Tico's don't even carry Harpoons anymore, it is questionable whether a Standard Missile would do considerable damage to a Kirov class, isn't the Standard Missile a blast-frag proximity fused missile with less than 100 lbs explosive, not to mention the Navy would only use the Standard in SSM role at visual range. I believe the BGM-109D would be the best weapon, but unfortunately the Navy has never formally acknowledged tests against ships, so success in that role has never been publically verified. There is evidence the Navy lists it as an Anti-ship missile, but no evidence regarding the quality in that role since the BGM-109D does not have an active radar seeker. FYI: The Russian Fleet is getting more modern, not in decay like many here are speculating. The Admiral Nakhimov, another Kirov class, is being returned to service in 2007 with major upgrades, and as for your Oscars, the Oscar IIs are being upgraded left and right in the Pacific, and that point was recently noted in the Pentagon following the QDR release. http://www.bellona.no/en/international/russia/navy/northern_fleet/general/37191.html