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Subject: HMS Ocean deckspace
Iano    5/31/2005 8:48:06 AM
How difficult could it be to extend OCEANs forecastle to form a rectangular shape, effectively adding in corners to the curved forward deckspace she now has? I'm not talking of restructuring her bow, just extending the deck a little at the flanks, strong enough to support a bit of weight. If you look at the picture here: link , you can see a rectangular front, like the American amphibious assault "pocket carriers" have, would be enough to let her accommodate a further one or two helicopters on deck.
 
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Iano    RE:HMS Ocean deckspace   6/9/2005 8:06:59 PM
Building anew would mean not just building a new LPV, but 2, considering how one Invincible is being lined up for re-roling to an LPV (I cant think which, damn its the one which has Phalanx instead of Goalkeeper and other differences that make it more like Ocean - and if it is not being lined up for this it certainly should be!). It would also mean, as Ocean is based on the Invincibles, that the Invincibles would be chucked out. This in my opinion cant happen. We are giving up 3 carriers for 2, okay they will be larger, but they would still have more difficulty in responding to multiple crises, particularly as one will probably be in long refit! So we could only expect to deploy one CVF. But how about modifying and extending the service lives of the 2 remaining Invincibles as STOVL & Helicopter Carriers. They would be able to operate the F35B and Merlin MPH and AEW, and should have a small VLS cell added by the forward Goalkeeper and peripherally if possible. This would enable us to be in more places at once - places that perhaps dont require a full CVF CVBG - as well as letting us use the 2 CVSs as LPHs when required, like in the Gulf. We would be able to take a graduated response to crises, not sending our most powerful forces unless the situation warranted it. The remaining Invincible would be re-roled as a second Ocean, in what is an increasingly-called-for role. This would give us a total of: 2 CVFs 2 CVSs 2 LPVs 2 LPDs As for escorts, apart from the usual DDGs and FFGs, we might consider 2 CGs (think large weapons carrier, more all-rounder than the arsenal ship concept though) and 2 CHs (helicopter carrying cruiser, along the Japanese lines only enlarged). In fact these 2 cruiser classes might qualify as capital ships themselves in the context of brown water operations against less capable navies, or in low intensity operations when the full might (and cost, image and political message) of a CVBG/ESG/ARG/taskgroup is just not required or wanted. Ian
 
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Iano    RE:HMS Ocean deckspace   6/9/2005 8:13:26 PM
You've got to remember that when the MoD sat down and thought of possible ways forward for Britains aircraft carrier capability, one option was to extend the service lives of those we already have. So it is not impossible at all. And they have proved to be such versatile and flexible warships - remember they were originally ASW through deck cruisers. Now, on the subject of CVFs, yes these will be an exciting development, but I cannot begin to imagine how much more capable we would find ourselves if we had 2 of the American type CVNs, either instead or as well! As the USN is building its future CVN force, has anyone heard anything about the RN possibility of procuring one or two? Economies of scale, jointness, special relationship and all that! Unlikely yes, but it would be a leap forwards...
 
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interestedamateur    RE:HMS Ocean deckspace   6/10/2005 4:06:27 AM
Ian All good ideas but the money doesn't exist. US CVN's by the way will have crews of around 4,500 - 5,000 which we simply cannot afford. Have a look at Richard Beedall's Naval Matters website for more on the way that the RN is going to operate. If you read between the lines on his future carrier section, you'll see that the RN is desperately trying simply to get a carrier that can fit 36 fighters, even to the extent of leaving it unarmed, or getting rid of the Sampson radar. I wish I could be more positive but it simply comes down to the lack of dosh.
 
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Iano    RE:HMS Ocean deckspace   6/10/2005 9:49:47 AM
Damn, perhaps Big Tone should put a bit of pressure on El Presidente Bush for a couple of CVNs after the hand we gave him over Iraq! Similar to how this latest African conference has gone... I thought the USN was looking at reducing CVN crew (including air personnel) to more like 3000? As the pay is a large cost of running one!
 
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interestedamateur    RE:HMS Ocean deckspace   6/10/2005 12:56:02 PM
Ian This is the link to Richard Beedall's website. link I strongly suggest you have a good browe as he is very good, especially on future procurement policy. It will also answer some of your other threads by the way, such as contenders for the future AEW system. The crew sizes for US aircraft carriers came from this week's Janes Defence Weekly. According to Jane's, Nimitz class carriers have a crew of 5,922. The objective for the new US carrier (CVN 21 class) is a crew of 4,660. Apparently the US Navy have so far managed to identify how to reduce the crew to 5,322, and work is ongoing as to how to find further reductions.
 
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