HMS Ocean deckspace

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Iano RE:Future RM 6/2/2005 10:06:39 AM

Proposed RM structure: Marine Brigade - Brigade HQ (with specialist units attahced, C&C sigs, brigade patrol troop, EW troop etc) Marine Infantry Regiments x3 (eg 40, 42, 45 Cdos) Marine Cavalry Regiment (from HCav) Marine Artillery Regiment (basically 29 Cdo) Marine Combat-Engineers Regiment (eg expanded 59 Ind RE) Marine Support Regiment (eg expanded CLR - but ALL aspects of support ie. fd eng, med, sig, log, admin & spec, not just logistics) Other units not assigned to brigade - Fleet Protection Group Special Boat Service Assault Squadrons RM Aviation Service To be considered/trialled: Additional Marine Infantry Regiment/Independent Commando Unit? How does that sound?

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Lawman RE:Future RM 6/2/2005 10:23:36 AM

It sounds good, if the additional marine infantry regiment is a genuine infantry regiment, i.e. two battalions of light infantry. I do agree with integrating the engineer, artillery and other units into the structure, rather than simply attaching Army units. My proposal: 1 x Commando Bn (40, 42 or 45 Commando) 2 x Marine Infantry Bn (Army units, re-assigned) 1 x Marine Cavalry Bn (Using FRES in the future, or CVR(T) now) 1 x Marine Artillery Bn (105mm L-118) 1 x Marine Air Defence Bn (Starstreak, plus a battery of SLAMRAAM) Plus all the associated support units. The artillery and air defence units would be battalions in name only, in practice, they would be quite modest units, but sufficient to do the job. The main benefit: three deployable units of Brigade size, allowing units to rotate alert duties. It would also allow the Commando units to truly function as forced entry, but with an intermediate unit to keep the door open for the Army...

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Iano RE:HMS Ocean deckspace 6/2/2005 10:37:58 AM

Do we really need 3 Marine brigades? Because what you are proposing is actually 9 Marine Infantry bn/regts, albeit only 3 "originals". I dont think the soldiers or the army leadership are going to keep quiet whilst you transfer them to the Royal Navy. Actually it could backfire, with the large influx of Army troops they might argue the RM and responsibility for commando forcs is transferred to the Army and leaves the Navy! I heard a tabloid rumour about the RM going to the Army a while back, hope theres no truth in it as they have performed outstandingly as-is and the Navy needs its own private land force. I know 3 brigades would mean less stretch than 1 brigade, but A: do we really need 3 brigades when one has always sufficed in war B: by expanding the RM so much do we risk lowering standards to get the numbers and C: we could relieve stretch by using army units for peacekeeping etc, thereby keeping the RM for what they do best, all-out "kick-in-the-door" assaults and tasks requiring their rapid reaction, maritime, commando and amphibious skills, and otherwise training for this. To me, having 3 bdes would mean the MoD would love to send them away to serve in peacekeeping and other jobs etc that the army do now. They would be too small to consitute a 2nd army like the USMC does but too large to ignore when assigning deployments. Training would suffer and so would performance in their proper roles. Best approach is to keep them as distinct and elite as possible - ie: "we will have 1 brigade and this is what it is for, it will either be doing this or training for it, it will not be hampered by other army roles". If the $hit hits the fan and they need another RM-like force to call on to spearhead an invasion or something, they can always call on 16 Air Assault anyhow...

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Lawman RE:HMS Ocean deckspace 6/2/2005 2:41:32 PM

You would only be adding six battalions to the Marines though, which should not be too hard. If you are careful, and keep the lead battalion as a Commando, and emphasise that they are separate from the two light infantry units. I do agree the Army might complain, but they would have little luck, especially if you increase their role in special operations (the new ranger unit, not the SAS bit...). The aspect of peacekeeping is exactly why I support having a designated peacekeeping-assigned force within the Army. It would prevent them from seeing everyone wearing green (including assorted passers-by) as a peacekeeper! I do think there is a need for three Marine brigades, in order to lead a more robust reaction force. I think there is nothing wrong with increasing the size of the Marine units, as long as it as part of a wider increase in defence capability. As mentioned before, I think 2.75% of GDP for defence would go a long way...

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Iano RE:HMS Ocean deckspace 6/2/2005 6:32:00 PM

Anyhoo, I reckon they should at least extend Oceans deckspace to a rectangular front! lol

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Lawman RE:HMS Ocean deckspace 6/2/2005 6:35:21 PM

I think it should be more of a blunt wedge shape, like on the old Tarawa class...

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Iano RE:HMS Ocean deckspace 6/2/2005 7:01:16 PM

If you go to the photo gallery discussion board scroll down and find the picture of the USS Kearsage and her escorts...

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interestedamateur RE:Future Structure of Royal Marines 6/3/2005 3:29:16 AM

Ian, Lawman You may or may not be aware that the structure of the RM is changing anyway. For instance: - 24 Commando Engineer Regiment was created in the latest defence review - There are discussions between the Army and RM over the permanent loan of an Infantry battalion to the RM (but this hasn't been confirmed) - There has not been the creation of a "Commando Light Horse". However the RM do have the Command Support Group which is essentially a C4ISTAR Battalion for the brigade. This battalion would control an assigned squadron from Household Cav Regt, plus other units such as RA drones etc. Ian, as a matter of clarification the Commando Logistic Regiment does include REME and Medical Squadrons. It's a pretty powerful unit - in wartime it has over a thousand personnel. I can send you an Orbat if you're interested. Links are available for this stuff if you want further info, and more info is on the Royal Navy website. John

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interestedamateur RE:Helicopters for the Marines 6/3/2005 3:42:35 AM

Ian Apparently the RM did ask for CH53X Sea Stallion Helicopters to replace their rattly old Sea King Commando's. However they were told that they were too expensive (both in terms of upfront purchase costs and ongoing maitenance). Also joint-service considerations as you mentioned were no doubt a factor. They're much more likely to get Merlins as these are built in the UK. Its worth noting that the RM have received serious upgrades over the past 10 years and these are continuing into the future, vis: - Milan reoplaced by Javelin - purchase of Viking Vehicles and Wolf (Land Rover WMIK) - Bowman - LIMAWS(G) new artillery guns by around 2010 - new helicopters by around 2010 - Updated small arms They've done extremely well since SDR and are much more powerful that 10 years ago when you take into account Commando 21 and all of the new shipping that has been built for them. John

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perfectgeneral RE:Future Marine and Air Assault 6/3/2005 8:42:44 AM

The UN and NATO(EU) both concider the rapid reaction and expeditionary forces at their disposal are too few. The crisis in Darfor etc. are being put on hold until forces become available. This is not about time of war, these are current peace-keeping/making requirements. Hand in hand with the G8 initiative on Africa should be a re-roling to make the Army more expeditionary. Until the medium equipment is ready (FRES and A400M) we shall have to make do with light (Viking/Scorpion and C130J). Both RM and 16 Air Assault should have a shadow army brigade that seeks to aquire some of their skills in order to cover for them on a battalion for battalion basis. The RM and 16AA would remain elite units, but the second Commando Brigade and second Air Assault Brigade would aspire to semi-elite status. Those trying out for RM or Para, but not quite making it might be transferred here instead. If only 10% pass elite training there must be a 10% that nearly pass. I'm not saying that they should be elite too. I'm saying that they are still good soldiers and should be put to good use (but taking their shortcomings into account). The chip on their shoulders will make them good units if they respond correctly. The suggestion that we have two shadow brigades each for 3 Commando and 16 Air Assault is too much. The extra cost in training and equipment is only half the story. We have to balance light role with heavy (and later medium). Also the dilution in quality in the force overall would be too great.

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