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Subject: More trash on the Oliver Hazard Perry Class
Thomas    1/23/2004 8:28:59 AM
If I remember correctly, the USNavy estimates the yearly running cost of a OHP class to 19 mio USD (please correct if I'm wrong - can't find the info right now).

If this is true, then it might be worth while to look at the competition: The Danish Thetis Class, which is not only build to artic waters, but actually - according to the Danish governments budget statement - has an annual average running cost of 43 mio DKK (even at the present exchange rate is only 8 mio USD)

Any Aussies looking for a bargain??????
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:More trash on the Oliver Hazard Perry Class   1/23/2004 8:57:53 AM
Does that include wages? I believe the US pays its service personal very well. Also, I can imagine that the USN ships spend a lot less time in port, and would be deployed into dangerous areas where the crew gets combat allowances.
 
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gf0012-aus    RE:More trash on the Oliver Hazard Perry Class   1/23/2004 3:21:18 PM
Whats the crewing on a Thetis, weapons mix etc? In the past when we used cold weather dominant designs (like the old Darings - which were a classic destroyer design) cost us money in getting them to run properly under tropical conditions, same problems for the Leanders, Rothesays, Salisbury class escorts, and the same for the Q class frigs as well. Costs would be the same now as efficient air systems are a lot easier to retro install etc... But I think you'll find some resistance to aust getting cold water designs as a legacy of it. OTOH NZ may be a better bet as their overall defence force running costs have been a crippler. They need to replace their 3rd unit (ex mod Leander?) and I believe that the US had proposed an almost "give away" price for an OHP.
 
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Guknub    RE:More trash on the Oliver Hazard Perry Class   1/23/2004 6:06:18 PM
The Thetis is a Patrol Ship with half the crew and barley any weaponary. The Thetis is often suggested as a good candidate for patroling the Southern and Indian Oceans because of its lower costs but it isn't a Frigate and shouldn't be mistaken for one.
 
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Mark F    RE:More trash on the Oliver Hazard Perry Class   1/23/2004 6:46:57 PM
I do have fairly recent figures around here somewhere for operating costs but I'm not going to bother looking because IIRC that should be pretty close. Not quite sure I get what your point is though.
 
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northernguy    RE:More trash on the Oliver Hazard Perry Class   1/24/2004 10:53:39 AM
Properly outfitted O.P.H. ships would be suitable for Canada to bring up its offshore coastal patrol capability. Canada's entire surface fleet is barely operational as a consequence of the sustained load placed on it by the demands of supporting American operations wrt Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course there is the matter of a shortage of manpower for the current fleet. Acquisition of some O.P.H. class ships would require a change in policy regarding the size and nature of the Canadian Navy. Not too likely in the immediate future. Personally, I would like to have seen them snap up the K class destroyers that were interminably negotiated to Taiwan. That would have added some mean to the lean Canadian military capability.
 
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Thomas    RE:Aussiegunner   1/26/2004 1:22:14 AM
The Thetis figures include wages. Three out of four Thetis are at sea at all times.
 
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Thomas    RE:More trash on the Oliver Hazard Perry Class   1/26/2004 1:30:20 AM
Thetis class are particularly for the arctic, they should be well sailing after many earlier designs with flaws: The old Beskytteren had problems in following sea. As to reduced capability: Their capabilities have been downplayed politically to get a pacifist party to vote for them. Fisheries protection! Indeed! Poaching from submarines and long range patrol aircraft! As to comparable capability: Is a OHP nescessary for the task?
 
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WDDavenport    Thomas, why are these Danish ships cheaper to operate?   2/4/2004 2:33:35 PM
Thomas, why are these Danish ships cheaper to operate than OHP frigates? You need to state some reasons why. Lower manning levels? Less fuel consumed because OHP frigates typically travel farther than one side of the Baltic to the other on a cruise? Or are you implying that these Scandanavian ships have some extra special, almost magical, cost effectiveness?
 
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Mark F    RE:Thomas, why are these Danish ships cheaper to operate?   2/4/2004 2:54:52 PM
Theoretically, there is every reason why the Thetis should be cheaper to run than the OHP's. For one thing they are younger and thus should, all things being equal, have less stuff breaking down. The Thetis require roughly 1/3 the manpower with consequent reductions in training, salary, feeding and medical costs and so on. There are fewer combat systems on the Thetis to maintain (elimination of the Mk 13 missile launchers on the OHP's is a cost-saving move). Because of lower required speed performance they are powered by economical diesel engines not high-powered gas turbines. So its quite logical for the Thetis to be cheaper to operate.
 
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Thomas    RE:WDDavenport    2/16/2004 4:38:29 AM
While nodding to Mark F and concurring: The Thetis class does not sail in the Baltic. Their official role is "Fisheries Protection" in the North Atlantic. Lot of nasty poaching from Strategic bombers and Russian submarines.??!!? There are 2 at Greenland and 1 at the Fairisles at any one time. Correct Mark F: But the real issue is: Is the OHP class the right vessel for the task. The Thetis operate in some of the worst weather in serious iceing conditions. Whether the Antarctic and Arctic waters are comparable I am not sure, but a Danish expedition used an Arctic commercial ship from Lauridsen Line (rounded bottom so as not to be screwed down by the ice - rolled like a maniac under most seaconditions). True the OHP might be better armed, but is ist needed?? The threat of Bears out of Murmansk must be minimal. Secondly: As the Thetis class have modular arms containers, wouldn't it have been more economical with 2 Thetis in stead of 1 OHP ????
 
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MilesDei    Thetis    2/17/2004 12:15:24 PM
I looked up the Thetis class in my 2002 edition of Jane'Warships Recognition Guide and another reference book and both gave the full load displacement as 3500 tons and the armament as one 76mm gun, one or two 20mm AA guns, and two depth charge racks. It has a crew of 61 and can operate one Lynx. It has a top speed of 20kts. On the other hand, the OHP displaces 4100 tons fully loaded (in the later versions)and is armed with a 76mm gun (in the most awkward position ever, if I may say so), a Phalanx CIWS, six 324mm torpedo tubes, and a variety of .50 MGs and 25mm Bushmaster cannons, depending on the version. Some ships retain the Mk. 13 single-arm missle launcher and the ability to fire SM-1MR AA missles and Harpoon SSMs.It has a crew of 214 and can operate two Seahawk helicopters. It has a top speed of 29kts. I guess it boils down to whether or not you want a newer ship with an ability to enlarge the weapons fit or a proven design that might be getting a little long in the tooth. The Perry without the Mk.13 doesn't differ much in weapons and requires significantly more men, but it can operate more helicopters. Basically, it all depends on the mission and the money you want to spend. How's that for an original two cents? ;)
 
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Thomas    RE:Thetis    2/18/2004 4:01:39 AM
That is excatly my point. But an annual saving of say 10 mio USD can finance an expenditure of between 100 and 200 mio USD (depending on calculation interest) - so the OHP must be very cheap indeed. Put it in another way: What did the US pay Australia to use the OHP? It is not uncommon to sell secondhand equipment at a very low price, because the profit on spares is (in my experience) 80% of the price. Old tubs do need a lot of spares.
 
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Mark F    RE:Thetis    2/18/2004 4:57:48 AM
Australia purchased her OHP frigates as new-build, not second-hand. She acquired them because they are warships. Thetis is not. Australia paid for the ships, not the other way around.
 
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Jack Tar    RE:Thetis    2/18/2004 5:09:54 AM
Is the Thetis class the one with a modular design, so their weapons/sensor suites can be taylored to specific missions? (My memory isn't what it used to be!)
 
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Thomas    RE:Thetis Jack Tar Mark F    2/18/2004 8:24:26 AM
Yes they have at least some modularity. The ones You probably are thinking of is the Standard Flex - which are a completely diffent kettle of fish as they are for shallow waters. Furthermore all new Danish warships are being build on the modularity principle - there even talk about a HomeGuard cutter on that principle. So the future classes will be sized according to how many shoeboxes they can accomodate. Mark F. Thanks for the information. If we consider the task of the OHP class in Australian service to be patrolling the waters south of Australia it seems to me like they are unnessecary large. Thetis not a warship??? They are called Fisheries Protection Vessels due to political concerns. If they had had a more warlike name - like frigate - the Radikale Venstre (a small pacifist party hold a controlling vote in the center of Danish politics) would never have voted for them.
 
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