Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Surface Forces Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Ideal World War Two RN
earlm    5/4/2008 3:13:32 PM
With hindsight what should the RN have done to be the best force possible for WW2? 1. Obtain better AA fire control from US. 2. Obtain US carrier based aircraft through lend lease. 3. Introduce a dual purpose 4.5-5" gun. (US 5"/38?) 4. Scrap the R class. 5. Save money on KGV and arm them with R class turrets with higher elevation. 6. Modernize Hood 7. Modernize Repulse
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23   NEXT
larryjcr    replay   5/11/2008 1:02:08 PM

I am going to have to take issue with one thing that you said larry.  Calling the Northern Operation a "waste of flight decks" is only correct in hindsight and due to good intelligence. 

 

Would those carriers have been more useful at Midway with the battle that unfolded?  Most certainly.  That is not a debate.  What you fail to address is that had the U.S. not had intelligence fingering Midway as the target than those carriers, with small air-wing capacity anyway, could have been invaluable.  The Japanese used them as a decoy.  Their decoys worked, just look at Leyte Gulf.  The U.S. Navy, without its intelligence coup, could easily have rushed to react to the Northern Operation and totally been slammed at Midway or forced to engage at a disadvantage.  It is only by the skill of the intel guys that the dicey situation at Midway wasnt turned into a near unavoidable disaster because of those "wasted flight decks."

 

In the beauty of revisionist hindsight it is all too easy to say that those carriers would have been far far more use at Midway, but thats because the Japanese plan was found out. 


Actually, the Northern attack was never intended as a diversion.  Read SHATTERED SWORD by Parshall and Tully.  Yamamoto had to agree to the northern attack, which was an operation in its own right, as part of the negotiations process of planning Midway.  As planned the two operations were supposed to start on the same day, but the Midway operation was delayed one day by a technical problem.  The idea that it was intended as a diversion was an assumption of ONI due to the timing.  That assumption got written into history until recent study of Japanese documents clarified it.  So while that might have been the effect without US access to the Japanese plan, it was never the Japanese intention to "use them as a decoy."
 
Quote    Reply

larryjcr    replay   5/11/2008 1:14:37 PM

On Strategy Page is a thread where I give a complete answer about Halsey. He forced Kincaid into a carrier battle beyond US land based air cover during the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands. I blame him for First Guadalcanal, the Battle of Bull's Run, the two typhoons, the botched mess that is Leyte Gulf, bungling the follow up naval campaign that allowed the Japanese to reinforce Ormoc by sea. There were numerous other botched decisions that Halsey made for which I wish he had been relieved.

Herald      .

And as I replied in that thread, Halsey and Kincaid HAD to prevent the Japanese carriers from getting within attack range of Henderson to protect the US lodgement on Guadalcanal.  That meant fighting them on the way in.
 
At Leyte Gulf, Halsey's orders from Nimitz and King made the Japanese carriers his primary target if the chance to attack them "presented itself or could be created."  Without the knowledge (that we have, but he didn't) that those CVs carried little or no actual striking power, he HAD to view them as the primary threat, and reacted accordingly.  Halsey did what his superiors expected of him: act agressively to destroy the carriers.  It was Spruance's preceived failure to do so at Philippine Sea that led to the wording of Halsey's orders.
 
The 'botched mess' was the result of the divided authority and lines of command that came down to Halsey from above.  That was the fault of Nimitz, King and MacArthur.  A bad arrangement, especially when combined with Halsey's tendancy to 'make war by memo' rather than plan, which resulted in repeated failures by both sides to co-ordinate with each other.  Samar was not the only occasion where MacArthur's people assumed something without checking it, and Halsey acted without making sure others knew what he was doing.
 
On the matter of the typhoons, however, I agree entirely.  Halsey simply didn't handle those storms with the level of skill to be expected of a seaman of his experience. 
 
Quote    Reply

larryjcr    replay   5/11/2008 1:28:43 PM

and 8.  You're the one who was
recommending building more LEANDERS, and 8" gun cruisers. 
The RN, showed good judgement when they ended construction of
LEANDERS before the beginning of the war.  While comparatively
cheap, they were just too limited in capabilities.  What they
needed WAS AAA escort ships, which they tried to make out of some of
the old C and D class ships, with mixed results.  The DIDOs were
what was needed, and could do a LEANDER's job as well as it could if
needed.  The SOUTHAMPTONs were much more flexible ships than the
older 8" gun cruisers, and just as good, or better, in a surface
action until the fire control radar improved enough to make spacing
the salvoes so that the radar could plot fall of shot became a
factor. 





What
eight inch bore gun cruisers? The Londons and the Southhamptons are 6
inch bore gun cruisers the last time I looked.





The
reason for a Leander is fairly simple.





?http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/history/ships/perth1.html?

" target="_blank">link ">link




Modified
Leander


HMAS PERTH (I)


Statistics





































Type



Light Cruiser Modified
'Leander' Class



Displacement



6,830 tons (standard)



Length



555 feet (waterline), 530 feet
(between perpendiculars)



Beam



56 feet 8 inches



Draught



15 feet 8 inches



Builder



Portsmouth Naval Dockyard



Laid Down



26 June 1933



Launched



 
Quote    Reply

larryjcr    Reply to your 5-10   5/11/2008 1:57:38 PM
I'll respond to this monster post of yours in parts. 
LEXINGTON and SARATOGA were  ALWAYS on opposite sides in exercises as far as I've been able to discover.  If you can cite me a specific example otherwise, please do.  By the way, that's the reason for the wide black strip on the side of SARA's stack structure seen in pre war pictures.  The two ships were often mistaken for each other in the exercises, and their captains sometime took advantage of the mistakes.  LANGLEY was used, but was so small and slow it was effectively useless, and I don't consider the attempts to use it worth considering.
 
RANGER spent its time in the Atlantic and almost never operated with the other carriers.  It was considered a failure.  It was slower and shorter range, and kept sea so poorly that it was not possible to operate her a/c except in very calm seas. 
 
Attackin Pearl Harbor as an exercisse subject was done twice, each time with one carrier attacking and one defending.  Same with attacks on the Panama Canal, which was another popular subject.
 
Table topping is useful ONLY if you have some real world experience to support the assumptions you make.  Remember, the Japanese famously table topped the Midway operation, and it sure didn't come out like the real thing.
 
Again, the USN had NO experience in operating two carriers together, either in a single formation, or in seprate formations.  Nor had they ever actually practice full group sized strikes under anything like realistic conditions (carrying full ammo and fuel loads and full weight weapons rather than light weight training equipment, let alone weight for additional armor, etc.).  If anyone cosidered the problems of launching multi-deckload strikes prior to 1942, I've found no record of it.
 
Prior to Dec. 7, '41 the Pacific Fleet carriers were divided with one each assigned to three different forces.  The carrier force had ENTERPRISE (YORKTOWN had gone to the Atlantic), LEXINGTON worked with the battleship force, and SARATOGA with the Scouting force.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/11/2008 3:20:57 PM

..


Better go back to your references.  The LONDON class were 8" gun cruisers.  Completed in the late 1920s, 9800 tons, 8X8", 8x4"AA, 8-16X2lbr AA, 32 kts, 1 (except in LONDON 3) a/c.

Yes that's right. Most of what I typed on that was from memory. That should have been Edinburgh or something like that. You get one point.
 
The original point of this thread was what could the RN have done differently, in the light of hindsight.  I understand why they did what they did.  That's not the point.  You seemed to want them to build more LEANDERS, I contend that they were right to discontinue building them when they did.

I wrote what they did, based on what they knew, and what threats they faced and what tech they had made a lot of RN mission SENSE. If it works well, and fits the RN situation, why not build more of  it? I mean the 6 inch bore twin gun turret worked against the design set of likely targets, the 4 inch bored gun AAA worked well against its likely target set, the torpedo outfit was reasonable for the European threat of the day, and the size  displacement was reasonable for an ocean going escort. Where the shortcomings were, were in the fire control directors and the secondary AAA armament. Borfors and radar will fix that. The cruiser even has a seaplane that is a useful ASW asset if you use it properly. Whats not to like in this GP cruiser?  
 
By Coral Sea, the USN had already increased AAA on its ships considerably, although nothing compared to what they did later.  The AAA for Benson-Livermore was "as designed" not as operated in May, '42.  Same for the cruisers, and especially for the carriers.  The Japanese found the US flak to be terrifyingly superior to their own.  Check out the a/c lossed suffered by CarDiv5 at Coral Sea.  In spite of the inadequate number of fighters they lost two-thirds of their attacking force.

Of 70 Japanese aircraftn lost, 39 shot down due to US AIR INTERCEPT  ACTION[Wildcat and Dauntless versus Zeke Val and Kate]   over the Lex [we lost 33 aircraft in that action] and the majority of the Japmese remainder lost either  being bombed on the  Shokaku's flight deck or splashed into the ocean after running out of gas after bungling an attack on Yorktown. Losses to American AAA, ZILCH. Pilot repiorts on the American side reported Japanese AAA to be pretty.
 
Again, most of what you put up has little to do with my points.  Not much of a rebuttle.

Since it refers TECHNICALLY directly to your raised issues about Midway, to the technical choices the RN made, and to the fantasies you have about matters naval in general-especially Fletcher-it is directkly on point to the issues raised.

1. I explained the British choices and why the alternative choices you suggest where impractical are not practical.
2. I explained  to you that the 1944 fantasy of the US Pacific  is not the 1939 RN global realitry.
3. I explained that despite yiour copious reading of the revisionists nonsense about naval history, you as well as they don't know the first thing about battlespace management or how each side actually planned Midway out according to their own carefully worked out objectives, technical, and logistic limitations.

Some GOOD REASONS  for example drove Japanese movement and operation  plans.
1. Their fleet was scattered across the western Pacific in ongoing operations to support a multi-front war. To concentrate they had to schedule the  fleet movements from where those units actually were as of 25 May 1942. Thus the start positions dictated the movement plans for EVERY JAPANESE ship.
2. The Japanese had to hoard heavy fuel oil . They only had so much to burn. They always planned their major fleet movements with this limiter.
3. Ditto with the number of oil tankers
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    I'll respond to that latest nonsense in a bit, Larry.    5/11/2008 3:29:25 PM
But I'll make this comment. You did read where I pointed out the NWC exercises were linked to Fleet Problems, so that the same concepts tested in either  simulation or game were tested to real world measured operational results? On tabletop, the  NWC reconnaissance probabilities were set against the results Saratoga fliers had in trying to find Lexington in bad weather during Fleet Problem XIV for example.

So far you are making a poorer  showing this thread than you did on the last one, Larry.

Perceived weaknesses are technical history, logistics, and understanding the operational art.

Herald


 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Comment on fleet problems....    5/11/2008 9:45:55 PM
source citation pdf....

As you can see my assessment of the Fleet Problems is accurate and your assessment is not.

Have a nice evening.

Herald


 
Quote    Reply

Nichevo    Bug?   5/12/2008 12:50:07 AM

source citation pdf....

As you can see my assessment of the Fleet Problems is accurate and your assessment is not.

Have a nice evening.

Herald


their homebrewed SSL cert is the bunk, Herald.  Do you get an Unknown Authority cert error  loading your link, https://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/2658/etd-tamu-2005B-HIST-Wadle.pdf;jsessionid=99E5E3C823D957119DBB3EF1E8D5AB29?sequence=1

h*tps://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/2658/etd-tamu-2005B-HIST-Wadle.pdf;jsessionid=99E5E3C823D957119DBB3EF1E8D5AB29?sequence=1

I do. 


BTW, both you and Larry come across as quite well informed and erudite.  Even your typing is better! ;>  Not all the same information shared yet among you, but that's why this has been worth reading. 

May I ask whether skip-bombing by naval aircraft could have served any useful purpose, or did you need land-based e.g. B-17s to bring a sufficient quantity of the pain?

What a/c would Midway Island have best been reinforced with?  B-25s perhaps, it can carry four bombs to a very long patrol range.  Although as is known the land-based bombing was largely ineffectual, couldn't this have been otherwise with the early adoption of skip-bombing?

This would be a pure advance in the tech tree, H, or earlier adoption of an extant concept?  When invented, skip-bombing, when conceived?

A 72% success rate is almost too good.  Who needs PGMs?

But we had the beginnings of these.  Did they prove out much at sea?
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/12/2008 1:43:20 AM



source citation pdf....

As you can see my assessment of the Fleet Problems is accurate and your assessment is not.

Have a nice evening.

Herald



their homebrewed SSL cert is the bunk, Herald.  Do you get an Unknown Authority cert error  loading your link, https://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/2658/etd-tamu-2005B-HIST-Wadle.pdf;jsessionid=99E5E3C823D957119DBB3EF1E8D5AB29?sequence=1

h*tps://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/2658/etd-tamu-2005B-HIST-Wadle.pdf;jsessionid=99E5E3C823D957119DBB3EF1E8D5AB29?sequence=1

I do. 

I don't.

UNITED STATES NAVY FLEET PROBLEMS AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF
CARRIER AVIATION, 1929-1933
A Thesis
by
RYAN DAVID WADLE  

BTW, both you and Larry come across as quite well informed and erudite.  Even your typing is better! ;>  Not all the same information shared yet among you, but that's why this has been worth reading. 

Maybe its a difference of interpretation with Larry, but his problem is that he  completely  overrates everybody's capabilities in the 1930s and seem to buy into naval revisionism as published in the 1990s instead at lookiong at what is going on in the scholarship NOW.  The USN was not some mythical technical innovator in AAA artillery until after the war starts and then not until 1944. The British were not some bunch of backward looking rubes and the Japanese and Germans were not some miracle workers. Each Navy had its triumphs and its fiascoes. [well maybe not the Germans who fought a terrible naval war  tactically, operationally and technologically.].

May I ask whether skip-bombing by naval aircraft could have served any useful purpose, or did you need land-based e.g. B-17s to bring a sufficient quantity of the pain?

The B-17 could bring the pain. I would have used the Mitchell, but there was no skip bombing in  June 1942 and the Mitychells available were desperately needed in Papua/New Guinea.

The Australians in mid 1942 I think, and the British in the Mediterranean experimented with skip bombing about this time. It was perfected by ANZACs and Americans in the first half of 1943.

What a/c would Midway Island have best been reinforced with?  B-25s perhaps, it can carry four bombs to a very long patrol range.  Although as is known the land-based bombing was largely ineffectual, couldn't this have been otherwise with the early adoption of skip-bombing?

Skip bombing with medium bombers against ships was a low level exercise. The Japanese  tried a variation of this  type of tactic against the USS Lexington before Coral Sea and Lexington's fighters SLAUGHTERED them.  It only works if you completely suppress the enemy fighter CAP.

This would be a pure advance in the tech tree, H, or earlier adoption of an extant concept?  When invented, skip-bombing, when conceived?

Around later half of 1942. Its a technique, not a new technology beyond the existing equipment or crews.

A 72% success rate is almost too good.  Who needs PGMs?

We did. The AAA by 1944 was too murderous to inside of 4000 meters to survive in order tom skip bomb, even Japanese  AAA.

But we had the beginnings of these.  Did they prove out much at sea?

Five BATS launched, at least two hits and destroyer sinkings. A BAT in 1941 means Torpedo 8 launches BATs to wreck Nagumo's carriers  at Midway beyond Japanese fighter CAP and  then they return with torpedoes in round two to finish the job. Trouble is that the BAT requires gyro autopilot control and airborne radars that we just didn't have until 1944. 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/12/2008 10:22:47 AM



On Strategy Page is a thread where I give a complete answer about Halsey. He forced Kincaid into a carrier battle beyond US land based air cover during the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands. I blame him for First Guadalcanal, the Battle of Bull's Run, the two typhoons, the botched mess that is Leyte Gulf, bungling the follow up naval campaign that allowed the Japanese to reinforce Ormoc by sea. There were numerous other botched decisions that Halsey made for which I wish he had been relieved.

Herald      .


And as I replied in that thread, Halsey and Kincaid HAD to prevent the Japanese carriers from getting within attack range of Henderson to protect the US lodgement on Guadalcanal.  That meant fighting them on the way in.

What changed since Midway? Nothing. You DON'T move your carriers out of range of your land-based air cover when you are that badly outnumbered and if you have land-based air cover to help, nor do  you move along a predictable threat axis to neet an enemy head on.
 
At Leyte Gulf, Halsey's orders from Nimitz and King made the Japanese carriers his primary target if the chance to attack them "presented itself or could be created."  Without the knowledge (that we have, but he didn't) that those CVs carried little or no actual striking power, he HAD to view them as the primary threat, and reacted accordingly.  Halsey did what his superiors expected of him: act agressively to destroy the carriers.  It was Spruance's preceived failure to do so at Philippine Sea that led to the wording of Halsey's orders.

Just because your orders don't make sense and your command arrangements are confused-doesn't excuse BUNGLING and criminal STUPIDITY.

Let me remind you of what was the REALITY when the Bull chased after Ozawa.

1. The follow up reconnaissance launched by Bogan found Kurita had turned around and was headed straight for San Bernardino Strait and that those ships appeared to be in good order and formation.
2. US  Army reported San Bernardino  channel lights were lit up  like a  Christmas  spectacle. Somebody expected somebody to make a night run through the Strait.
3.  Mitscher, Bogan, Lee, et al, and just about anybody American in TF 38, who had the contact reports, who could work calipers and read a map expected Kurita to show up off Samar to throw Kruger a Birthday Party that very morning.
4. Where was 40% of Task Force 38 when Ozawa showed up? That would be John McCain of Task Group 38.1. He was R&R at Ulithi! FIVE of the biggest and best of America's carriers weren't even on hand when that IDIOT Halsey opened Leyte Gulf.  he didn't recall McCain until Samar started.  Actually he didn't recall McCain at all. That was his panicked staff that yelled for help  putting out the call in his name. McCain didn't get there in time to do much except join in the chase after Kurita escaped.

YOU CAN'T ALIBI HALSEY FOR THIS.  I would have shot him for criminal negligence after Kincaid convened the inpromptu board of naval inquiry.    

Here's why 1....

Here's why 2....
  


The 'botched mess' was the result of the divided authority and lines of command that came down to Halsey from above.  That was the fault of Nimitz, King and MacArthur.  A bad arrangement, especially when combined with Halsey's tendancy to 'make war by memo' rather than plan, which resulted in repeated failures by both sides to co-ordinate with each other.  Samar was not the only occasion where MacArthur's people assumed something without checking it, and Halsey acted without making sure others knew what he was doing.

The Halsey defense, quoted straight from his own auto-biography,  is a very good readback, Larry. If you remember, Spruance had the Nimitz orders to preserve his carriers at all cost, yet he risked everything he had to make sure of Nagumo. Your op orders are no excuse in the middle of the battle for failing to execute your responsibility properly. 

On the matter of the typhoons, however, I agree entirely.  Halsey simply didn't handle those storms with the level of skill to be
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy