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Subject: DDG-500 Frigate Design
dwightlooi    3/7/2008 12:32:49 AM
Since we are going at it with regard to fictional  warships that perhaps the USN should build, let me tender an old concept of mine from last year. It's a tumblehome with all its controversy and it is carries essentially half the DDG-1000's missile load, makes do with a 57mm gun and only the X-band half of the DDG-1000's dual band radar suite (the SPY-3).










 
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Charles99       3/7/2008 1:09:07 AM
It's an interesting design, and would be more capable then the LCS.

 On another note, very  nice illustrations.  Would you be interested in illustrating some other concepts for pay?

 
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BLUIE006       3/8/2008 9:31:56 PM
I like it, however the PAM ...  are they long ranged enough ?? Maybe PAM -ER
 
Would the space be  better for More SSM ?
 
USV??
 
 
 
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stinger       3/8/2008 11:24:54 PM
How about speed. I would prefer a plaining hull over the tumblehome bow. this type of hull is for fuel conservation and friction over hull. but not speed.
 
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Herald12345    Aft missiles foul helo pad.   3/8/2008 11:31:26 PM
plus the hull has CG issues.

Herald

 
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doggtag       3/9/2008 7:23:20 PM

I like it, however the PAM ...  are they long ranged enough ?? Maybe PAM -ER

 

Would the space be  better for More SSM ?

 
Solution: Lockheed Martin's P44.
(from Defense-Update.Com   )
Lockheed Martin (NYSE:LMT) unveiled a new missile designated P44, designed to demonstrate a long range high precision strike capability. The P44 is designed for quick precision strike against moving surface targets under any battlefield conditions without minimum range limitations. It is designed to fill the gap in the ability to effectively engage and neutralize long-range artillery, particularly mobile rocket launchers. This compact missile (7-inch (17.8 cm) diameter) weighs 220-pound (100 kg)). It will have an effective range from zero to more than 70 kilometers. It will be launched from an MLRS multiple launch platform, such as the tracked MLRS, GMLRS or therapidly deployable wheeled HIMARS platforms.

The missile uses a fast boost-sustain motor, and terminal seeker capable of operating under adverse weather conditions. The projected warheads for P44 are either a 28-pound Hellfire II Metal Augmented Charge (MAC) or a 17-pound shaped charge with precursor. Ten missiles can be loaded into MLRS rocket pods, stored with their wings folded. The missile uses a mature tri-mode terminal seeker with semi-active laser (SAL) for designated targets; Doppler millimeter-wave radar (MMW) for weather penetration and detection of moving targets; and cooled imaging infrared (IIR) for imaging and discrimination, augmented by Global Positioning System -aided inertial guidance (GPS-INS) for mid-course guidance and.

The P44 missile completed its first flight February 15, 2007 launched from a surrogate HIMARS launcher. Further tests are planned in the near future, demonstrating confirming rocket motor performance, maneuvering and aeroballistics. On April 6th, 2007 P44 made its second test flight last week. In this test Lockheed Martin validated the operation of the missile's control actuation system and GPS-aided inertial guidance mode for P44. Sofar, the missile successfully demonstrated both boost and sustain operations, stability in cruise mode GPS guidance modes.
------------------------
 
Interesting feature is its 4 Mode Seeker
Lockheed Martin Unveils New Four-Mode Guidance Ground Launched Precision Strike Missile

FT. LAUDERDALE, FL, March 7th, 2007 --

Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] today unveiled P44®, a company-funded effort to demonstrate a long range strike missile for quick precision strike against moving surface targets under any battlefield conditions without minimum range limitations.

P44 ? a 7-inch diameter 220-pound missile with an effective range from zero to more than 70 kilometers ? is a next generation missile system.  It can be launched from an MLRS® multiple launch platform, including the combat-proven HIMARS, the newest generation of highly-transportable multiple rocket launch platforms.

?Lockheed Martin has committed substantial internal funding to this development program to make an innovative new system available to our Army customer,? said Glenn Kuller, director of Tactical Missiles Advanced Programs for Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.  ?We believe that by coupling mature missile and seeker technology with the combat-proven HIMARS launcher, we can offer an affordable, low-risk, fast, precision-strike solution to the moving target problem, without additional equipment or force structure.?

P44 was designed to respond to a gap in the ability to effectively engage and neutralize rapidly proliferating long-range artillery, particularly mobile rocket launchers. 

?This gap against fleeting targets is difficult to fill using projected munitions.  However, merging a fast boost-sustain motor, an adverse weather terminal seeker and HIMARS, will offer the Army a badly needed solution,? said Kuller.  ?With P44, aggressors cannot hide behind the weather, nor can they escape.?

With wings and fins folded, 10 P44s can be packaged into MLRS rocket pods with considerable margins for growth.  The four-mode P44 has Global Positioning System-aided inertial guidance; carries a mature tri-mode terminal seeker with semi-active laser (SAL) for designated targets; Doppler millimeter-wave radar (MMW) for weather penetration and detection of moving targets; and cooled imaging infrared (IIR) for imaging and discrimination.  The projected warheads for P44 are either a 28-pound HELLFIRE II Metal Augmented Charge (MAC) or a 17-pound shaped charge with precursor.

Following successful wind tunnel tests and static firing of rocket motors, a Lockheed Martin P44 Ballistic Test Vehicle was successfully flown at the White Sands Missile Range, NM, on February 15, 2007.  The missile was launched from a surrogate HIMARS launcher demonstrating designed-in compatibility with deployed force structure.  A P44 Control Test Vehicle (CTV) is planned later this spring that will further validate simulations and models.  The CTV flight test will maneuver the airframe and confirm rocket motor performance and aeroballistics.
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Yeah, it's longer than a PAM.
But that extra length gives us the range advantage (70km vs 40km) that would've been offered by PAM's now-defunct air-breathing (microturbine-powered) brother, LAM (Loitering Attack Missile).
 
And the option of two different warheads would enable a larger target envelope than the PAM's explosively-formed penetrator type: EFPs are fine for tanks, AFVs, and even some bunkers, but not necessarily the best candidate for damaging a ship, other buildings, or any targets we want destroyed outright that generally aren't the most ideal candidates for EFPs.
 
And with further development and refinement, I believe that 15-25kg warheads should be easily achievable.
 
And still in an aiframe much smaller than an ESSM (or the once-offered POLAR naval variant of the G-MLRS rockets).
And a VLS cell designed to handle a munition of the P44's physical dimensions (7inch diameter) is only a step away from being able to rocket-boost some SDB variant (about 6&1/2inch diameter) to altitude, allowing it to glide to target on its flip-out wings.
An SDB made of non-metallic radar-cheating composites would be a very effective first-strike weapon used for opening-day attacks along coastal areas (Silkworm batteries and the like).
 
Keeping the P44's length but incorporating the microturbine proposed for the LAM, could nearly double the range (150+km?) and create a very effective anti-ASM battery weapon, far cheaper than TacToms and Harpoon/SLAM types (and not waste the limited number of antiair/antimissile ESSMs as surface attackers), with plenty of oomph to take down any launchers and artillery systems, yet keep the launch vessel at the outer edge of many of the coastal-based ASM launchers it's hunting.
Come up with an anti-radar homing model to shut down coastal arrays when we don't have carrier airpower present, and we have a winner.
 
 
Quote    Reply

dwightlooi       3/10/2008 2:58:20 AM
The PAM is about high packaging density, low cost firepower. Maximum range is about 40km. The vessel also carries the harpoon and can carry Tomahawk class 21" AShMs in the VLS if such a weapon is developed. The PAM is for taking precision guided shots at gun boats, coastal installations and other targets which are outside the range of the 57mm or which are too numerous to engage one at a time with the cannon -- targets which you don't want to waste a TACTOM or a Harpoon on. It's VLS launch mode and image recognition homing permits simultanneous multi-target engagement with requiring radar resources or launcher slewing time.

Perfect for instance for firing on a cluster of 4 or 5 PT boats trying to pester the vessel at moderate range. A harpoon is an overkill. A hellfire sized missile doesn't pack a lot of "boom", but it is a big enough "boom" to ruin the day of a half dozen a-holes on an open deck PT boat or a couple of guys holed up in a sand bagged mortar pit.

 
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BLUIE006       3/10/2008 4:57:55 AM
60 PAM
 
40 P44 - ER (80-170kms)
 
-- I like it
 
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doggtag    LAM's microturbine engine   3/10/2008 1:56:27 PM
Took some digging,
but here's the jist  on the LAM's TDI-developed microturbine engine,
a compact design (squeezes inside a 7-inch diameter missile body) that can generate up to 100 pounds of thrust.
 
The applications of these microturbine class powerplants certainly have a lot of potential: small, reduced cost PGMs being the primary interest.
And the TDI-J7's smaller brethren could possibly be key to giving the SDB glide bomb an even greater range, with the added advantage that any left over liquid/slurry fuel adds to the incendiary effects on target.
Thing is though, just like when comparing the LAM to its solid-fueled brother PAM, is that warhead weight must be sacrificed in addition to replacing the solid fuel and rocket motor to incorporate the microturbine and its quite small fuel tank (still, the fact that a LAM could get 70km out and/or just loiter around for 30 minutes orbitting the battle zone looking for targets says something, especially for a barely-5-foot-long, 7-inch diameter missile).
LAM's warhead was expected to be about half that of PAM's (IIRC, I think it was 5kg vs 10kg, something in that neighborhood).
 
So, if we can develop other small scale PGMs and equip them with these microturbines (some R/C aircraft are already using miniature, micro-size jet engines, not just multi-bladed ducted fans),
we have a very large warfighting potential at our advantage.
 
Seeing as the PAM itself is pretty much the Hellfire of the 21st century (same general length, diameter, weight, and warhead class, but with far more capable guidance and longer range),
I expect that it's only a matter of time before we see multiple-round helicopter mounts for the weapon (perfect compliment with any of those recent laser-seeking 70mm rocket programs).
And if PAM can reach to about 40km from its surface launch cannister,
I wonder if an air-launched variant could carry much farther (dependent on the launch aircraft's speed and altitude),
or if we could modify the PAM to have a short range (10-25km) but 50-100% more warhead...?
 
Further refinements by these mnicroturbine developers will certainly give us improvements in fuel economies and overall thrust.
Even if only marginal, the addition of another 10-20% thrust or improved fuel economy could equate to a few minutes' less flight time to the same range, or a larger payload, or a longer range.
 
Seeing TDI's microturbine stablemates, I wonder if, akin to the USAF's LOCAAS under development (check some of the news articles on TDI's site),
perhaps next we could see a family of Viper Strike-sized enhanced range PGMs that can be the ideal armament for a number of long endurance small UAVs,
being both light enough and small enough to carry in numbers,
yet with warheads ideally suited to pinpoint strikes where collateral damage is an issue.
In open country, I'd just say to use the PAM (assuming it'll eventually replace Hellfires, providing we keep the option of various warheads other than the EFP),
but in cities, an airbreathing Viper Strike than can follow a boosted glide slope to targets 20+km away...
 
These would be perfect for FireScouts and other UAVs that just don't have the payload of the larger Predators.
 
 
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B.Smitty       3/10/2008 2:29:52 PM

It's an interesting design, and would be more capable then the LCS.


It would be far less capable than the LCS in MIW - one of the LCS's primary mission configurations.   

It would also be a LOT more expensive than the LCS, reducing the number of hulls which could be bought.
 
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xylene       3/10/2008 5:45:38 PM
Interesting design. Looks to have a lot of wieght concentrated midships and astern. That type of bow may also prove difficult to berth.  Seems damage to the bulbous bow collision/allision with dock would be major problem with this design. 
 
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Herald12345       3/10/2008 5:54:01 PM

Interesting design. Looks to have a lot of wieght concentrated midships and astern. That type of bow may also prove difficult to berth.  Seems damage to the bulbous bow collision/allision with dock would be major problem with this design. 


As I said before: CG issues.

Herald
 
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ArtyEngineer       3/10/2008 7:52:09 PM




Interesting design. Looks to have a lot of wieght concentrated midships and astern. That type of bow may also prove difficult to berth.  Seems damage to the bulbous bow collision/allision with dock would be major problem with this design. 




As I said before: CG issues.

Herald

While Herald is correct in stressing the importance of controlling thte location of the CG, of absolute equal importance is the Centre of Bouyancy.  Thats what Naval Architects do.... tweaking hull form, structure and machinery spaces to get a vessel to behave as required.  I see no more problems with this proposal than what will be encountered with the actual DDG 1000.  See pic below:
 


 
 
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Herald12345       3/10/2008 8:39:11 PM








Interesting design. Looks to have a lot of wieght concentrated midships and astern. That type of bow may also prove difficult to berth.  Seems damage to the bulbous bow collision/allision with dock would be major problem with this design. 






As I said before: CG issues.

Herald


While Herald is correct in stressing the importance of controlling thte location of the CG, of absolute equal importance is the Centre of Bouyancy.  Thats what Naval Architects do.... tweaking hull form, structure and machinery spaces to get a vessel to behave as required.  I see no more problems with this proposal than what will be encountered with the actual DDG 1000.  See pic below:

 




 

You are quite right. I used an aviation mass balancing term term, when I should have used a flotation term.

I stand corrected.

There are some who raise the objections about the Zumwalt that I raise about the Fletcher.

Smaller hull, more concentrated mass forward in cross sections, I see the  Fletcher as a  nose diver.

This is entirely intuitive at the moment; as I have not sectioned the hull form to get cross sectional density per segment..

Herald
 
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ArtyEngineer       3/10/2008 8:51:55 PM
















Interesting design. Looks to have a lot of wieght concentrated midships and astern. That type of bow may also prove difficult to berth.  Seems damage to the bulbous bow collision/allision with dock would be major problem with this design. 








As I said before: CG issues.

Herald




While Herald is correct in stressing the importance of controlling thte location of the CG, of absolute equal importance is the Centre of Bouyancy.  Thats what Naval Architects do.... tweaking hull form, structure and machinery spaces to get a vessel to behave as required.  I see no more problems with this proposal than what will be encountered with the actual DDG 1000.  See pic below:



 








 



You are quite right. I used an aviation mass balancing term term, when I should have used a flotation term.

I stand corrected.

There are some who raise the objections about the Zumwalt that I raise about the Fletcher.

Smaller hull, more concentrated mass forward in cross sections, I see the  Fletcher as a  nose diver.

This is entirely intuitive at the moment; as I have not sectioned the hull form to get cross sectional density per segment..

Herald

Yeah, intuitively the "Tumblehome" hullform doest feel right.  Its going to be an interesting experience for the bridge crew during the first real heavy seas as they watch some huge rollers come surging over the forward section of the ship!!!!  Those Advanced Gun System fairings are going to have to be pretty damn robust!!!!
 
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xylene       3/10/2008 9:51:25 PM
That's what I'm trying to convey. The whole issue of a forecastle as reserve bouyancy.
 
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