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Subject: British carriers finnaly get the go ahead.
jessmo_24    11/28/2007 5:05:55 AM
-http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8743.html Yesterday in the UK, the two new CVF class carriers "HMS Prince of Wales" and "HMS Queen Elizabeth" were given full go-ahead and funding for construction. With in-service dates of 2014 and 2016. Significantly, this go-ahead included the descision to use a ramp rather than EM Catapults in the ships initially although they can be retrofitted with them if necessary. What does this mean for F-35? It means the UK is now officially commiting to the F-35B rather than a mixed fleet including the F-35C (this decision dictated what was to be procured). The CVF class has a combat wing that will include up to 40 F-35B (realistic more around the 30-35 when factoring in helicopters). Sadly, it is unknown if E-2D will be procured, I know tests are currently undergoing in the US to show the E-2D can take-off using a ramp however, there are no plans for arrestor gear to be fitted to either ship. So for the AWACs component the current favourites are the proposed AWACs version of the V-22 or the Merlin. Size wise, approx, only US carriers are going to be bigger. Although I don't think it is smart to only have 2 carriers, 3 minimum should be acquired imho. France is also looking at purchasing a CVF class carrier fitted with EM catapults to supplement the Charles de Gaule.
 
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jessmo_24       11/28/2007 5:07:32 AM
I wonder which aircraft will be chosen for an awacs/
 
V-22 awacs?
Merlin?
 
e-2?
 
discuss
 
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Herald1234       11/28/2007 5:49:06 AM

I wonder which aircraft will be chosen for an awacs/

 

V-22 awacs?

Merlin?

 

e-2?

 

discuss


Merlin-for very obvious reasons.. 

Herald 
 
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jessmo_24       11/28/2007 5:24:43 PM




I wonder which aircraft will be chosen for an awacs/



 



V-22 awacs?



Merlin?



 



e-2?



 



discuss




Merlin-for very obvious reasons.. 

Herald 


Some of us are a little less educated. can you explain why sir?
 
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Yimmy       11/28/2007 6:11:44 PM
Merlin is the logical answer, however Osprey is also a very real possibility, especially if the UK were to purchase it in the transport role (which while not on the cards yet, interest was shown when the type opperated on Illustrious).
 
Merlin is already in service in transport and ASW roles, and the fleet is being re-fitted with new rotor blades to allow them to fly higher.  They would seem a simple replacement for Sea King operating with Search Water radars.
 
 
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Herald1234       11/29/2007 2:24:29 AM








I wonder which aircraft will be chosen for an awacs/





 





V-22 awacs?





Merlin?





 





e-2?





 





discuss






Merlin-for very obvious reasons.. 

Herald 



Some of us are a little less educated. can you explain why sir?


Osprey is a very complex aircraft already as a VTOL tiltrotor. It will take a smallish radar probably above the wing as a three facet AESA array. The problems from an engineering viewpoint to build it are incredibly formidable. The Osprey is also a deckhog taking up TWICE the stand space of a folded up Merlin. Service ceiling is the Osprey advantage [5000 meter+] as well as range offset. But you look at the cost of an AEW Osprey [easily $200M US] as opposed to an AEW Merlin [<$100M US] which is far simpler to build mechanically, provides about 80% the aerial coverage, what do you think the MoD will opt to buy?

History is against the Osprey. 

It can't carry a heavyweight radar like the Hawkeye, It can't justify 2x the cost of a Merlin with only a 20% increase in the coverage footprint as well as robbing 2x the deckspace.

Only a Hawkeye type performance could justify the technical complexity, the sheer size, and the cost of an EV-22.

Herald 

Herald   

   
 
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Ezekiel       12/2/2007 3:13:20 AM
with the defense ministry leak of the inadequacy of the royal navy to meet the threats that it may face in the future.... I don't think 2 aircraft carriers, no matter how advanced is enough for an Island nation that historically and today relies on force projection and its air and naval wing to detter enemies. It looks like the 30's again in looking at England's defense budgets the last 15 yrs.
 
It seems to me that carriers that have been long overdue, new submarine class which will take another 10 yrs till we see just one of them, and the f-35b must be procured in much larger numbers then currently assessed. England must begin a procurement plan that will allow for force projection, but also dominance. With today's conceptualized procuremnt plan, England may be able to project force in 5-10yrs, but the argument can be made that when projected against a competant force it will not be assured dominance.
 
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EssexBoy       12/2/2007 7:14:29 AM

with the defense ministry leak of the inadequacy of the royal navy to meet the threats that it may face in the future.... I don't think 2 aircraft carriers, no matter how advanced is enough for an Island nation that historically and today relies on force projection and its air and naval wing to detter enemies. It looks like the 30's again in looking at England's defense budgets the last 15 yrs.

 

It seems to me that carriers that have been long overdue, new submarine class which will take another 10 yrs till we see just one of them, and the f-35b must be procured in much larger numbers then currently assessed. England must begin a procurement plan that will allow for force projection, but also dominance. With today's conceptualized procuremnt plan, England may be able to project force in 5-10yrs, but the argument can be made that when projected against a competant force it will not be assured dominance.


Not sure what you mean here; the first Astute class submarine will enter service in 2009. No other class of submarines is on order.
 
Essex
 
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perfectgeneral       12/2/2007 3:54:57 PM
He has a good general point about the RN being too small though.

You need at least three (probably four) CVF to ensure that one is always on station. For similar reasons I would look for more Daring class destroyers and Astute class nuclear attack subs than currently on order.

 
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Yimmy       12/3/2007 10:57:12 AM

He has a good general point about the RN being too small though.

You need at least three (probably four) CVF to ensure that one is always on station.
What would you rather for us to maintain our capability for expeditionary warfare,
a)  Buy the two carriers and associated air-wings,
or
b)  Buy the £3 billion worth in strategic transports, tactical helicopters and overseas basing rights for the AAC?  
 
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Ezekiel       12/6/2007 5:31:24 AM



He has a good general point about the RN being too small though.

You need at least three (probably four) CVF to ensure that one is always on station.

What would you rather for us to maintain our capability for expeditionary warfare,

a)  Buy the two carriers and associated air-wings,

or

b)  Buy the £3 billion worth in strategic transports, tactical helicopters and overseas basing rights for the AAC?  


Do both, give up the socialist "standard of living"  mantra, and put up a national defense budget that will allow Britain to bolster the west's must needed deterrence....dealing with china, russia, n.korea, iran, saudia arab and co....you get the picture. The Brit's left Basra in tatters and they are having a hard time in Afghanistan.... Britain needs to haerken back to a military that was dominant, for america's sake in it's 'special' relationship,and Britain being its strongest allie, as well as the West that has the fair weathered french as the next strongest military. Britain needs to make certain sacrifices to have both A & B!!!!
 
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