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Subject: Current Carrier design is obsolete & can be easily sunk.
HYPOCENTER    9/28/2007 3:16:22 PM
Guys, here is an eye-opening article on the threats facing the US Navy – it concludes that, with the proliferation of advanced anti-ship missiles and torpedoes, the super carrier has been compromised to such a degree that they simply are no longer viable. Furthermore, the author states a bold prediction: “If the U.S. Navy keeps building gigantic surface aircraft carriers and daring people to sink them, odds are, eventually, someone will take us up on it and do just that. My personal prediction is that this will happen within the next 10-20 years. Within 10-20 years, one of our aircraft carriers will get sent to the bottom by enemy missiles or torpedos (or both)--or possibly even UAVs/UAS. This scenario could even happen within the next five years.” Summary of key judgments: -“….the latest ship-killing unmanned weapon systems like supercavitating torpedoes and supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles being produced and/or developed by other countries that can probably sink the CVN-21, even if it is protected by its own highly-advanced, highly-lethal systems like fighter aircraft (primarily F/A-18s), ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare i.e. "sub-hunting") aircraft, the Raytheon Ship Self-Defense System (SSDS), Aegis-radar-equipped and highly-weaponized cruisers and destroyers, submarines, etc. That's not to mention unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) a.k.a. unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) being produced and developed by other countries that can also potentially wreak a lot of havoc and destruction on surface ships. And, at the end of the day, that's what the CVN-21 will be, a large, hulking, incredibly expensive (albeit very sexy) surface ship.” -Proliferation of such high-tech anti-ship missiles limits where carrier’s can safely or reasonably operate (thus limiting their effectiveness), “In the tactical shooting a.k.a. defensive shooting world, there's an old saying: "Action beats reaction." In other words, the actor always has the time advantage over the reactor. Time is the reactor's enemy, which means it will be our ships' enemy, if any of the now multiple countries who have supersonic anti-ship missiles and high-speed supercavitating torpedoes decide to launch them on us. Make no mistake, the first ships they'll launch against will be our aircraft carriers, and they'll probably launch a large number of these missiles at one time.” -“Let's give the U.S. Navy the benefit of the doubt, and say that it can stop 90% of the enemy missiles and/or torpedos streaking towards the carrier(s). The result's going to be the same. Understand that if just one of these missiles or torpedos hits the carrier, it's probably done. Even if it doesn't sink, it will most likely be taken out of operation. So, in effect, no more carrier. Let's say it takes two hits to destroy the carrier. All the enemy will have to do is fire at least 20 missiles at once, get its two hits on the carrier, and no more carrier. What if the enemy launches 20 missiles and 20 torpedos at the carrier at the same time? Get the picture? 20 anti-ship missiles and 20 torpedos might read like a big investment, but it's nowhere near the investement of a $5-$13.7 billion aircraft carrier. Not even close.” - Current defense systems are not enough, “I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "So what?" Even if the Iranians get one of those super-duper missiles, the U.S. Navy's got SeaRAM, which can defeat those nasty Mach 2.5 (approx.) anti-ship missiles. The SeaRAM Anti-Ship Missile Defense System can defeat it. It's our salvation. Well, not so fast. Ya' see, that little theory depends on two things: 1) that the enemy missile threat will be detected in time and SeaRAM will have a 100% kill rate, and 2) the 11-missile RAM launcher won't run out of missiles before the enemy does.” -Bottom line, if we get into any kind of serious beef with ANY country that has a decent arsenal of these weapons, our aircraft carriers will most likely be destroyed and sunk within minutes. They're just too big, too slow, and too visible to survive, even with all their onboard and offboard networked defenses. The fact is that high-speed, sophisticated precision anti-ship weapons technology is cheaper and can therefore outpace our ability to protect our big, slow carriers. In the end, war is a financial transaction. Russian helicopters cost a lot more to produce, field and replace than Stinger missiles, and U.S. Aircraft carriers cost A LOT more to produce, field and replace than even the most sophisticated anti-ship weapons. H*tp://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1048
 
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Herald1234    Don't play that PR game.   10/13/2007 2:46:45 PM

...There's a point.
A carrier is symbol of US power, and as such it is The Most Desirable Target for a determined foe. Hard to sink? True. One doesn't need to sink the carrier to achieve sweet victory: it's full of sailors, remember USS Cole? It is conceivably very difficult to get close enough to a CBG at sea and on wartime alert to be able to shoot at it, let alone score significant hits. The nature of the enemy and its assymetrical approach also must be considered.

Yes, the carriers are vulnerable.
Consider a first-day-of-the war Pear Harbor-styled scenario. Let us assume the carrier is at the entrance of a very busy waterway such as the Suez or the Panama canal. It just has performed a much-publicized port visit with one of the US allies in the vicinity, so EVERYBODY knows where it is, and where it's going.
Consider an innocent-looking, suitably rusty and Panamean-flagged tanker or container ship, in which a multiple AShM launcher, or worse, multiple torpedo tubes have been concealed. Consider that this ship is lined up less than five miles behind the carrier in the queue to the canal. The result: 100+ dead sailors, a couple thousands hurt to varying degrees, and a critically crippled capital ship. You-know whom gloats mightily and distribute confectioneries outside certain non-Buddhist religious buildings...

Consider, if you wish, a sudden outbreak of a war with Iran. The fleet is anchored at Bahrain, and on a peacetime footing, in full view of the IRGC forward observers. All of a sudden, supersonic AShM's and long-range torps are tearing in. The Iranian cost is less than 150 miles away, and two Iranian airbases are within a 200 miles radius. If I'm not mistaken, the enemy doesn't need to sail or to fly very far from its own turf to bring its weapons within range of Manama, so there won't be much time to respond once the attack is detected, and ships will get hit.




Missiles go both ways and Pearl Harbor is an equal opportunity option. Why advertise?: the first time the mullahacracy should know there is a war in progress is when the ayatollahs see the road sign to their next destination;

http://rocksnsucks.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/hell.jpg">

Herald

 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 8:14:38 PM
Anyone who thinks that an American aircraft carrier can be destroyed during wartime is an idiot. What you see cruising out there today is a FRACTION of what the USA can put to sea when there's some real shooting. There are going to be so many aircraft, ships, subs, satellites, and decoys protecting that carrier that the enemy will run out of ordnance. The US Navy expected mass missile attacks from the Soviets in terms of a 100+ incoming missiles per engagement while hunting enemy subs, aircraft, and surface ships. No one else but the US Military can accurately lob that much ordnance at a moving target at once on short notice. There's really only one way to stop an American aircraft carrier for sure, wait 40+ years until it is retired. Ha Ha Ha!
 
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randomjester    pride goes before the fall...   10/15/2007 8:58:48 PM
Klubmarkus, thats the kind off attitude that gets your @ss shot off. Consider:
The Maginot line was impregnable, and everyone knew it. Oh, hold on a second....
Lucky for the IJN at Midway that the Yorktown(? ) was unavailable due to damage, and that their codes were secure. Wait a minute.....
Just two examples of overconfidence in military history, and Im sure there are others.
Now I agree completely that to get a complete 'kill' on a CVN (as opposed to a mission kill) thats going to be incredibly difficult, but it is NOT impossible. A mission kill is going to be 'easier' but still, your going to have to be good. As Ive seen Herald state before, the Soviet bomber threat made US Admirals sweat bullets, because they were going to take heavy losses in any Cold war shootout, regardless of whether they prevailed in the end.
 
But the carrier redundancy within the US navy is the main thing. You sink one CVN? Congratulations, you just royally pissed off the other 11.....
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 9:27:45 PM

of overconfidence in military history, and Im sure there are others.

Now I agree completely that to get a complete 'kill' on a CVN (as opposed to a mission kill) thats going to be incredibly difficult, but it is NOT impossible. A mission kill is going to be 'easier' but still, your going to have to be good. As Ive seen Herald state before, the Soviet bomber threat made US Admirals sweat bullets, because they were going to take heavy losses in any Cold war shootout, regardless of whether they prevailed in the end.

 

But the carrier redundancy within the US navy is the main thing. You sink one CVN? Congratulations, you just royally pissed off the other 11.....



Bwa ha ha ha ha! It's not overconfidence if it's true. Maybe you guys haven't noticed, but the US Navy regularly practices with TWO to THREE aircraft carriers working simultaenously in order to form a MASSIVE strike group with all their escorts. You can add any other assets that are within range from the REST of the US Military and then you can also add our allies into the mix. So we have a huge quality and quantity advantage. And yes, that still leaves 8 more carriers to form groups with.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/15/2007 9:32:07 PM

Klubmarkus, thats the kind off attitude that gets your @ss shot off. Consider:


there's an excellent book worth reading that discusses historical examples of where technology should have held the day and did not, or where commanders misread the technology that they were up against and killed people unnecessarily.
"Misguided Weapons, Technological Failure and Surprise on the Battlefield" by Azriel Lorber.
 
Well worth reading.  Hubris kills more soldiers than some technologies....

 
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Yimmy       10/15/2007 9:43:57 PM
Thanks for the book suggestion gf, a tittle like that can't fail but suck me in.
 
And concerning the USN carriers having prepared to fight hundreds of missiles launched by the Soviets, what do people think would have been the result had such a war occured?  Myself, I think the USN carriers would only narrowly come second to the RN's Northern Sea task force in meeting the oceans bottom.
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 9:48:10 PM





 

Well worth reading.  Hubris kills more soldiers than some technologies....




Then America's enemies should read that book because you aren't going to believe how badly we're going to wreck them! America's enemies would be better off if they just shot themselves. There will be less pain, less cost, and the end result will be the same.
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 9:49:59 PM

Thanks for the book suggestion gf, a tittle like that can't fail but suck me in.

 

And concerning the USN carriers having prepared to fight hundreds of missiles launched by the Soviets, what do people think would have been the result had such a war occured?  Myself, I think the USN carriers would only narrowly come second to the RN's Northern Sea task force in meeting the oceans bottom.



Russian equipment is ludicrously unreliable and Russian personnel were ludicrously inept at maintenance back in those days. USN carriers would be more likely to suffer damage from accidents than to actual combat against enemy fleets.
 
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randomjester    It would be interesting....   10/15/2007 9:50:41 PM

Thanks for the book suggestion gf, a tittle like that can't fail but suck me in.

 

And concerning the USN carriers having prepared to fight hundreds of missiles launched by the Soviets, what do people think would have been the result had such a war occured?  Myself, I think the USN carriers would only narrowly come second to the RN's Northern Sea task force in meeting the oceans bottom.


I seem to remember that Rickover was asked how long carriers would survive in a shooting war. And he replied with something like "About 24 hours". Admittedly, he wasn't the most objective of observers, but I'd guess that in a Cold War scenario, the US Navy would have a few less carriers and quite a few less escorts than before. Then again, flying around the North Atlantic in a Bear trying to find the battle groups, would not be all that enjoyable either.

 
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gf0012-aust       10/15/2007 10:00:19 PM




Thanks for the book suggestion gf, a tittle like that can't fail but suck me in.



 



And concerning the USN carriers having prepared to fight hundreds of missiles launched by the Soviets, what do people think would have been the result had such a war occured?  Myself, I think the USN carriers would only narrowly come second to the RN's Northern Sea task force in meeting the oceans bottom.




I seem to remember that Rickover was asked how long carriers would survive in a shooting war. And he replied with something like "About 24 hours". Admittedly, he wasn't the most objective of observers, but I'd guess that in a Cold War scenario, the US Navy would have a few less carriers and quite a few less escorts than before. Then again, flying around the North Atlantic in a Bear trying to find the battle groups, would not be all that enjoyable either.



There were some NATO cold war numbers thrown around a few years back which suggested that the USN would lose 80% of their carriers within 24hrs due to the fact that the Soviets had the mass and momentum as well as a willingness to lose their assets in killing the CBG's The view was that all CBG's would be done and dusted within 72 hrs and that the Soviets would then be subjected to 2nd strike by SSBN's and any aircraft on the way to the failsafe perimeter.
The quality vs quanitity argument has been raised before and comes under Lanchesters Theory.  Basically Lanchester says that quality will only get you so far, and at a certain tipping point quantity will overwhelm the advantages that quality had in resisting the surge.  So, for some the issue is building average or decent platforms in smothering numbers to saturate and overwhelm any quality advantage an enemy may have.
 
In Chinas case, they are not the Soviets, but they are also clearly proponents of Lanchester.
 
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