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Subject: Current Carrier design is obsolete & can be easily sunk.
HYPOCENTER    9/28/2007 3:16:22 PM
Guys, here is an eye-opening article on the threats facing the US Navy – it concludes that, with the proliferation of advanced anti-ship missiles and torpedoes, the super carrier has been compromised to such a degree that they simply are no longer viable. Furthermore, the author states a bold prediction: “If the U.S. Navy keeps building gigantic surface aircraft carriers and daring people to sink them, odds are, eventually, someone will take us up on it and do just that. My personal prediction is that this will happen within the next 10-20 years. Within 10-20 years, one of our aircraft carriers will get sent to the bottom by enemy missiles or torpedos (or both)--or possibly even UAVs/UAS. This scenario could even happen within the next five years.” Summary of key judgments: -“….the latest ship-killing unmanned weapon systems like supercavitating torpedoes and supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles being produced and/or developed by other countries that can probably sink the CVN-21, even if it is protected by its own highly-advanced, highly-lethal systems like fighter aircraft (primarily F/A-18s), ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare i.e. "sub-hunting") aircraft, the Raytheon Ship Self-Defense System (SSDS), Aegis-radar-equipped and highly-weaponized cruisers and destroyers, submarines, etc. That's not to mention unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) a.k.a. unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) being produced and developed by other countries that can also potentially wreak a lot of havoc and destruction on surface ships. And, at the end of the day, that's what the CVN-21 will be, a large, hulking, incredibly expensive (albeit very sexy) surface ship.” -Proliferation of such high-tech anti-ship missiles limits where carrier’s can safely or reasonably operate (thus limiting their effectiveness), “In the tactical shooting a.k.a. defensive shooting world, there's an old saying: "Action beats reaction." In other words, the actor always has the time advantage over the reactor. Time is the reactor's enemy, which means it will be our ships' enemy, if any of the now multiple countries who have supersonic anti-ship missiles and high-speed supercavitating torpedoes decide to launch them on us. Make no mistake, the first ships they'll launch against will be our aircraft carriers, and they'll probably launch a large number of these missiles at one time.” -“Let's give the U.S. Navy the benefit of the doubt, and say that it can stop 90% of the enemy missiles and/or torpedos streaking towards the carrier(s). The result's going to be the same. Understand that if just one of these missiles or torpedos hits the carrier, it's probably done. Even if it doesn't sink, it will most likely be taken out of operation. So, in effect, no more carrier. Let's say it takes two hits to destroy the carrier. All the enemy will have to do is fire at least 20 missiles at once, get its two hits on the carrier, and no more carrier. What if the enemy launches 20 missiles and 20 torpedos at the carrier at the same time? Get the picture? 20 anti-ship missiles and 20 torpedos might read like a big investment, but it's nowhere near the investement of a $5-$13.7 billion aircraft carrier. Not even close.” - Current defense systems are not enough, “I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "So what?" Even if the Iranians get one of those super-duper missiles, the U.S. Navy's got SeaRAM, which can defeat those nasty Mach 2.5 (approx.) anti-ship missiles. The SeaRAM Anti-Ship Missile Defense System can defeat it. It's our salvation. Well, not so fast. Ya' see, that little theory depends on two things: 1) that the enemy missile threat will be detected in time and SeaRAM will have a 100% kill rate, and 2) the 11-missile RAM launcher won't run out of missiles before the enemy does.” -Bottom line, if we get into any kind of serious beef with ANY country that has a decent arsenal of these weapons, our aircraft carriers will most likely be destroyed and sunk within minutes. They're just too big, too slow, and too visible to survive, even with all their onboard and offboard networked defenses. The fact is that high-speed, sophisticated precision anti-ship weapons technology is cheaper and can therefore outpace our ability to protect our big, slow carriers. In the end, war is a financial transaction. Russian helicopters cost a lot more to produce, field and replace than Stinger missiles, and U.S. Aircraft carriers cost A LOT more to produce, field and replace than even the most sophisticated anti-ship weapons. H*tp://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1048
 
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Herald1234    Look you idiot..........   9/29/2007 10:15:36 AM

Herald

Nations who have skill and numbers to sink at least one USA carrier (mainly with competent crews and good subs):

Russia, UK, France, Greece, China, India, Japan, Australia, probably Sweden or Germany...

I think that you look as a cretin now...

I has already told you: check and think before posting!

 
1. Russia can try and probably fail.
2. Britain is DANGEROUS.
3. France?  ROTFLMAO, not with the kind of admiralty you have. You can't even MEZ right, nor did you build the RIGHT technology.
4. India can try but they don't have the numbers yet.
5. The PRCs haven't got a snowball's chance in HELL
6. Australia has the kit. They are dangerous.
7. Japan? Not enough deep battle-space survivable surveillance assets to even find the carrier.
8. The rest-same as Japan. 
 
When next you post, cretin, I expect you to do better. Here you trend into MY turf. 
 
Herald
 
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Enterpriser       9/29/2007 1:04:48 PM
Mine is BIGGER than Yours!
 
That's right ladies, when it comes to high-intensity combat versus sophisticated opponents Size Does Matter. Forget the "it's not the size, it's how you use it" argument. Multiple smaller carriers may seem to offer tactical redundancy however this comes at the cost to strategic implication. For Example:
 
1) The ability to stay on station
2) The numbers of escorts required
3) The sizes of the Air Groups - Efficiency (65kton Carrier with around 40 Aircraft vs. 100Kton Carrier with 80-90 Aircraft)
4) TheTypes of Aircraft that can be used.
5) The increases in costs by 100 percent per extra carrier. Buying and running more Reactors, more sets of equipment etc. Money that cannot now be spent elsewhere. (What is the cost of the QE or POW versus a CVN?)  
 
There are some sound operational reasons to be continuing with the current sizes of CVN.
 
1) The need to have a critcal mass of aircraft for operational purposes (12 CVN CAG's would be more A/C than 18 CVLs worth)
 
2)
         A) Its called Sea-Ram and is now available in a range of colours, and comes in a handy 21 missile box-launcher.
         B) Burkes at Flight 11A carry 90 VLS each......and Aegis is for Area Defence.........
         C) Some Aircraft are designed to take out threat aircraft.....
         D)Its called a layered Defence (Precision Strikes, Capability Strikes, Interception by Aircraft, Standard, ESSM and
            then Sea-Ram/CIWS....) 
3) Even IF we accept that there is a level of threat that is potentially hazardous to a carrier, carriers on a war footing do not normally operate alone. If the threat/opposition is tough then expect more of our friends in the USN to be around. One CBG may visit Sydney, Australia. But Generally three drop by to say hello in the NAG ( Up to Six in GW1) and there were Three CBGs in the Gulf this year.
 
4) "All the Airforce is really interested in is flying around dropping things on people". Wars are not fought as one CBG versus the entirity of the enemey forces....... (who says their planes are getting off the ground......?)
 
5) Most modern torpedoes are homing fich so that stern tubes are no longer used. As such most subs only carry 6 tubes.....so the capability to fire 20 torpedoes at once comes from where?.....(20 fish is ironically also around the maximum carrying capacity of the Collins Class subs at 22 - largest convential subs?) 
 
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wjr1       9/29/2007 1:05:21 PM
All,

To some extent I think that you are all missing the point. The author of the original article is an idiot, of course, as being a lawyer is the starting point for that.

However, the real question is what are we using carriers for? The days of the IJN popping over the horizon and sending in the torpedo bombers are long gone. Carriers are not strategic weapons from the point of view of defending CONUS. They are an instrument of strategic / operational policy designed to keep the non Western world more or less in line. In other words, if you are El Presidente for life of Lower Bozo and you get really out of line with the neighbors then you very well might see a CBG (or rather the results of one) ruining your day.

If we are really angry with you then you will see a tall man with a wide hat standing over your city.

So, the carrier and the Marines are the knife and pistol rather than the cannon.

Along those lines, then, let's consider the small versus large carrier debate. This has been studied to death and debated ad nauseum. The only folks who support the small carrier concept are those who want the small carrier in order to cripple our foreign policy. The 50 odd thousand carrier is a defense weapon -- not an offense weapon. It simply cannot carry out the functions of the larger ships.

Smart folks carry the fight to the enemy and despise the strategic reactive thinking.

Best,
wjr

 
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gf0012-aust       9/29/2007 9:13:54 PM
I've seen some pretty shoddy academic pontifications in the past - but this one is close to winning a darwin award for the depth of its logical analysis.  the man is either intellectually indolent or he's being incredibly selective in his use of detail to promote his point of view.
 
someone needs to show him sinkex and hulkex data (maybe not, as he'd be blabbing it all over the net to support his blinkered comprehension of the issue) as well as explain how wartime footings alter the dynamics.
 
 
 
 
 
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wjr1       9/29/2007 9:18:22 PM
All,

To some extent I think that you are all missing the point. The author of the original article is an idiot, of course, as being a lawyer is the starting point for that.

However, the real question is what are we using carriers for? The days of the IJN popping over the horizon and sending in the torpedo bombers are long gone. Carriers are not strategic weapons from the point of view of defending CONUS. They are an instrument of strategic / operational policy designed to keep the non Western world more or less in line. In other words, if you are El Presidente for life of Lower Bozo and you get really out of line with the neighbors then you very well might see a CBG (or rather the results of one) ruining your day.

If we are really angry with you then you will see a tall man with a wide hat standing over your city.

So, the carrier and the Marines are the knife and pistol rather than the cannon.

Along those lines, then, let's consider the small versus large carrier debate. This has been studied to death and debated ad nauseum. The only folks who support the small carrier concept are those who want the small carrier in order to cripple our foreign policy. The 50 odd thousand carrier is a defense weapon -- not an offense weapon. It simply cannot carry out the functions of the larger ships.

Smart folks carry the fight to the enemy and despise the strategic reactive thinking.

Best,
wjr

 
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kirby1       9/30/2007 12:46:57 AM
The author does make a decent point of showing that a single carrier is vulnerable.
 
The whole point, however, is inapplicable to the US navy. We have twelve CVNs. Twelve, thats alot. Plust we have a crapload of surface combatants, not to mention a decent number of Nuclear subs, both boomers and hunters. If we lose a carrier, we can pull in another. If the risk is too big for our carriers, we can bring in the subs. We have redundancy on top of redundancy.
 
There are however, certain fleets in the world who don't have quite that amount of redundancy. I love me some big carriers, but the Brits and French might want to pay attention to what the man says. Don't put your eggs in one basket. IMHO, the Brits should build a total of at least three at best four of the new carriers they're wanting, and the French should purchase two to back up the CDG. While both those navies are at it, they should also show some loving to thier surface escorts and logistics fleets.
 
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Herald1234    Crane makes no point at all.   9/30/2007 9:14:10 AM
I tend to get savage when I read total idiots like Crane who miss the point.
 
The lesson the British are trying to implement; is that if they want naval power projection they have to have a base ship that PROJECTS that power. This comes at the cost of size, since AIRPOWER is the coin of SEAPOWER, and you cannot operate twenty tonne masse plus aircraft off the decks of Invinciblrs. You have the QE2s which is the smallest they can build that stand a reasonable chance of SURVIVAL in modern air sea combat against modern threats.
 
That said;the British also try to give their carriers the best chance against the likely attacks those ships will face. This is the remarkable Type 45 Daring destroyer that is a superb radar and countermeasures designed air warfare ship armed with the worst SAMs to ever be rolled out by MBDA.
 
Should the British build more carriers alone ? No, they need escorts. The carriers they have will strain them to the limit. What they should do is build two more  more AAW Type 45s and a second ASW destroyer based off the Type 45 hull that will replace the Type 23. They need at least TWO ASW ships for every AAW ship they build; then they need two dozen or so low cost warships to act as swing vessels for multimission global purposes.  
 
If they build a third carrier for the MN they should return the French ASTER double cross in spades and keep for themselves the hull\ they build to their own RN standards and their own RN purposes, or they should join with a different EU partner to build it and get a better SAM [navalized MEADS] and start the creation of a TRUE EU navy [with Germany, Norway, Spain, Holland and Italy] sans the FRENCH. [You shouldn't have posted that French AAR report on the French participation in OIF, poseur1.]. 
 
In sum; improve the onion defense; the British have all the successful pieces save three-CEC, the right kind of naval SAM  and a ship-based  AWACs.   
 
1. Get either ERMAD [VL boosted METEOR] built or navalized PAC III.
2. Build an EU version of AEGIS. The Daring is a good start but its not COMPLETE across the fleet.
3. Take the F-35B and hang an AESA radar that can act as a mini wedgetail and data link it to telemeter to the carrier or a  Daring the air sea battle management information the radar and other ESM detects.
 
The British have a fair handle on antisubmarine defense and the rerplenishment logistics side of things.
 
THAT is what you do.
 
Herald  
 
 
 
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John Barry       9/30/2007 9:14:02 PM
Below is a link about the use of "bait ships” The bait ship would be manned by a skeleton crew.  Basically to use outdated ships that were going to be scrapped as bait to decoy missiles away from the real combat ships.   If you are using stand off guided missiles, the missile is locking on to something and that something can be simulated.  During the Falkland Island the Argentinian thought they had nailed one of the British carriers, instead the Exocet had hit the Atlantic Conveyor. Good and Bad, good that it didn’t hit one of the carrier, bad because the ship was carrying a lot of stuff the British needed, most important of which were all their CH-47’s. What if you had a dedicated decoy? Is this a practical idea?
 
 
 
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John Barry       9/30/2007 9:15:24 PM
Below is a link about the use of "bait ships” The bait ship would be manned by a skeleton crew.  Basically use outdated ships that were going to be scrapped as bait to decoy missiles away from the real combat ships.   If you are using stand off guided missiles, the missile is locking on to something and that something can be simulated.  During the Falkland Island the Argentinian thought they had nailed one of the British carriers, instead the Exocet had hit the Atlantic Conveyor. Good and Bad, good that it didn’t hit one of the carrier, bad because the ship was carrying a lot of stuff the British needed, most important of which were all their CH-47’s. What if you had a dedicated decoy? Is this a practical idea?
 
 
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earlm    Author Only Looks at 1 Side   9/30/2007 9:22:23 PM
Think about being the enemy trying to sink the carrier.  First you have to find it.  Not so easy when your satellites are downed by the US and your search planes meet up with F-18s.  If you find the carrier you have to coordinate the saturation strike.  This is not within the capability of most forces.  Most nations that can do this are US allies.  What abut the issue of runways?  How can a nation make a simultaneous strike with hundreds of aircraft unless they have multiple bases within range of the CVBG?  Also, the supercavitating torpedo is a joke.  It is a revenge weapon that is only useful when it has a nuke warhead.  Why is it that no other nation with quiet subs and first class submariners is developing one?  The range is necessarily short and it offers no advantage over the prop driven torpedo at those ranges.  Long range wake homers are actually a greater threato a carrier.
 
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