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Subject: How well prepared are other navies at AAW and ASW defense scenarios...
DarthAmerica    9/9/2007 9:02:07 AM
...Specifically navies like the French and British Navies. Are these nations adequately prepared to deal with modern threats they would be likely to face? If for any one of these Navies had to transit a known choke point with a SAG/CV/CVN where appropriate, could they defend against a complex anti access threat. Threats like AshM saturation attacks with ECM support, land based AshMs, Lone Sub or Air launched AshM similar to Falklands or Conventional Sub in anti access role? Lets say through the Straits of Hormuz. -DA
 
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nominoe       9/14/2007 5:50:52 AM
Well there is a good article describing the Charles de Gaulle defense AAW system here :
h*tp://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=104001

For those who do not speak french :

CdG combat system was designed for a cold war era to face saturation attacks. SENIT can follow 2000 target simultaneously. Detection system use three systems :

- DRBV 26D and DRBV 15 are 2D radars with 270 km and 90 km range of detection.
- DRBJ 11B 3D radar, with a 185 km range
- ARABEL targeting radar has a 50 km range
- IR sensors with a 10 km range

The combat system is able to destroy 15 missiles simultaneously, given a 4-5 minutes reaction time (with a 100km detection of the missiles). Weapons are :

- 32 ASTER 15, 30 km range, with a 0,5 s fire rate (15 missiles launched in 7-8 seconds)
- 2 SADRAL launchers, with 12 MISTRAL missiles (short range 6 km)
- SAGAIE lure (EM and IR sensors)

That is for CdG only. To increase the range of detection, CdG can also rely on :

- Hawkeye (up to 500 km range) and Atlantic2
- Rafale F2 with link 16, data can be transfered via american satellites or french own system (SYRACUSE)
- AAW frigates, wich of course share their data with the carrier.

The battle group is deployed to insure a wide area of detection, with an AAW frigate located 200 km ahead of CdG in the direction of the threat (let's say the coast of Iran). Another Frigate is 30 km  rear for close protection. ASW frigates are located 50 to 70 km of the carrier and the SSN can be pretty far, depending on the threat.

- french ASW frigates are good and the DSBX-1 Sonar has a range of detection of several hundred km, combined with Amethyste SSN (a little old, barracuda will be better).
- french AAW frigates will soon be Horizon, with EMPAR and ASTER missiles. Deployed 200 km ahead of CdG in the case of a land based attack, and combined with CdG own systems, it is unlikely that the carrier would be damaged.

In the case of aircraft or ship based attack, it's up to ship/aircraft/submarine launched Exocet or Rafale/SEM with Hawkeye to clean the sea or the sky.

Through the strait of Hormuz, If the only enemy is Iran, I think that Rafale and SEM would be used fisrt to clean enemy coastal threats, ships and aircrafts without trouble if they only face a bunch of old F14, "new" Iranian fighter, and old AA systems. Djibouti land based Mirage could also be used (7 M2000C and 3 2000D). Then ASW frigate+SSN would clean enemy subs with AAW and Rafale protection before the Carrier engage the strait. That would be the most difficult part.

It is unlikely that after the first attack with french planes, Iran could launch a saturation attack. The deadliest threat remain submarines.

The french navy should be able to face an Iranian threat, or a falkland like scenario. Of course, facing a modern and/or numerous navy (US, Uk, Japan, Russia) That would be different.
 
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John G       9/14/2007 11:30:07 AM
I think the RN would fair well in ASW compared to other top tier nations, however our AAW is seriously lacking any second tier nation with a half decent airforce would put our fleet/taskforce in a serious bind. With the retirement of the SHAR and aging Seadart I cant see us lasting very long in a situation described above.
I think in the near future when we have T45 in place with CVF (as long as it maintains a full 36 F35 compliment looking less likely day by day...) this will change, but serious doubts remain as to the effectiveness of ASTER. I only hope Herald is wrong and with SAMPSON it will work out to be an effective partnership but his arguements never seem to be countered convincingly.
 
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DarthAmerica       9/14/2007 12:01:06 PM


It is unlikely that after the first attack with french planes, Iran could launch a saturation attack. The deadliest threat remain submarines.

The french navy should be able to face an Iranian threat, or a falkland like scenario. Of course, facing a modern and/or numerous navy (US, Uk, Japan, Russia) That would be different.
I wonder about that. I doubt a competent enemy would just throw themselves into a fight like that. The closer CdG got the more options the defense would have. With CdG being a light carrier and alone, I don't see how it would achieve the persistence and mass necessary to survive in close proximity to a land based threat for too long. CdG has only a hand full of Rafales and I think the Super Etendard are more strike oriented. The biggest shortcoming though is IF they only had one or two Hawkeyes. They could stage E-3 out of a land base and support it with tankers though and that would certainly help. But the French would need to back up their sensors with more shooters. French Fighters out of Dj would not have the persistence that far out to be reliable to support the CdG group for very long. This is not to say the CdG could not lauch a strike against a point target near the coast. It could. But it would have to be more of a hit and run IMHO and beware of the Kilo!  

-DA
 
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