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Subject: Can the U.S. Navy even threaten chinese targets in the littoral?
jessmo_24    6/28/2007 2:37:48 AM
That is conventionaly speaking of course.

Until the F-35 comes on line how will the navy cope?

Tlam: is countered by S-300,Tor-M1 missles

JassmEr: is not even done testing and still has bugs also Tors would stop them.

F-18C,E,F, Threatened By SU-30 aircraft and S-300 Missles that track at nearly 200 miles. (note thats well inside the release range of slammer and JDAM)

The only other option is to rely heavily on the airforce and rely on the carriers air wings for defense only. or Hit targets with hundreds of Tlams at a time and try to overwhelm them.

Im am really concerned out the navies ability to prosecute strikes in a age where stealth is becoming mandatory. Discuss.
 
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Phaid       6/28/2007 4:17:14 PM
Right.  If only the CVWs had some means of defeating the electronic emissions that guide all of these mighty S-300s and Su-30s.  Something that could perhaps jam them, or produce decoy radar images, or otherwise defeat their electronic sensors.  Why, you could even call such a thing "electronic warfare".
 
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flamingknives       6/28/2007 4:20:18 PM
Conventionally-armed SLBM, or would that be a bit risky?
 
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Herald1234    How about a MACH 8+ seaskimmer?    6/28/2007 4:41:53 PM
or one that just crosses land?

2250 mps at 100 seconds continuous burn picked up at 11,000 meters by a horizon limited radar/infrared detection scheme?

How does five seconds flat sound for detect, acquire, track, engage?

Especially when there are four of those things headed straight for you with jammers and decoys mixed in to make your DATE cycle process much worse?

Herald

 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       6/28/2007 6:42:30 PM
The US would to do a thorough job of cleaning out diesel boats and have plenty of ASW in place for new arrivals.
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 9:17:31 PM
They are going to land Marines and they are going to attack the chinese bases. Communist china has a huge coastline with plenty of coastal infastructure. They can't defend it all at the same time. So while the chicoms are are wasting a lot of money on air defense, the US military will hit them on the ground.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/15/2007 9:35:57 PM

They are going to land Marines and they are going to attack the chinese bases. Communist china has a huge coastline with plenty of coastal infastructure. They can't defend it all at the same time. So while the chicoms are are wasting a lot of money on air defense, the US military will hit them on the ground.

thats just not going to happen - China is a continental power - and the US has high respect for any enemy that is competent on their home ground advantage.
any US general that decided there was a viable plan to land on the mainland needs shooting now so that they don't kill any of their soldiers unnecessarily.
 
every rule in logistics and support just gets thrown out the window if you attack china over land.
 

 
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 10:50:50 PM



They are going to land Marines and they are going to attack the chinese bases. Communist china has a huge coastline with plenty of coastal infastructure. They can't defend it all at the same time. So while the chicoms are are wasting a lot of money on air defense, the US military will hit them on the ground.


thats just not going to happen - China is a continental power - and the US has high respect for any enemy that is competent on their home ground advantage.

any US general that decided there was a viable plan to land on the mainland needs shooting now so that they don't kill any of their soldiers unnecessarily.

 

every rule in logistics and support just gets thrown out the window if you attack china over land.

 


 



That's why it's going to work, because nobody would ever believe it and the chicoms wouldn't really be prepared for it. Besides, the question is about the littorals. We're not looking to take the entire country. It's like kicking off a ground war before the air war. It's like landing at Normandy instead of Calais.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       10/15/2007 10:58:27 PM
The US can sink plenty of PLAN littorals right now with anti ship missiles, mines and torpedoes.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/15/2007 11:00:36 PM





They are going to land Marines and they are going to attack the chinese bases. Communist china has a huge coastline with plenty of coastal infastructure. They can't defend it all at the same time. So while the chicoms are are wasting a lot of money on air defense, the US military will hit them on the ground.


thats just not going to happen - China is a continental power - and the US has high respect for any enemy that is competent on their home ground advantage.

any US general that decided there was a viable plan to land on the mainland needs shooting now so that they don't kill any of their soldiers unnecessarily.

 

every rule in logistics and support just gets thrown out the window if you attack china over land.

 


 



That's why it's going to work, because nobody would ever believe it and the chicoms wouldn't really be prepared for it. Besides, the question is about the littorals. We're not looking to take the entire country. It's like kicking off a ground war before the air war. It's like landing at Normandy instead of Calais.

do you actually understand anything about logistics? 
 
china within the the 150km coastal belt (ie, draw a silhouette parallel demarker 150kmn that follows the coast) has in excess of 1500 airfields and airstrips capable of handling fighters and light transports.  On your best day you could not neutralise everyoone of those airfields.  Everyone of those airfields is a logistics hub that can fast track troops, equipment or air defence assets to any part of the coast within minutes if not a max of half an hour.
 
the next 150km belt of land has over 500 airfields.  So they have a highly interconnected logistics support grid that an amphibious force cannot even begin to think about destabilising.
 
do you know why there have been no amphib landings (of scale) since Inchon?
Nobody in their right mind is going to go fight china on home ground.
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 11:07:55 PM









They are going to land Marines and they are going to attack the chinese bases. Communist china has a huge coastline with plenty of coastal infastructure. They can't defend it all at the same time. So while the chicoms are are wasting a lot of money on air defense, the US military will hit them on the ground.




thats just not going to happen - China is a continental power - and the US has high respect for any enemy that is competent on their home ground advantage.



any US general that decided there was a viable plan to land on the mainland needs shooting now so that they don't kill any of their soldiers unnecessarily.



 



every rule in logistics and support just gets thrown out the window if you attack china over land.



 




 





That's why it's going to work, because nobody would ever believe it and the chicoms wouldn't really be prepared for it. Besides, the question is about the littorals. We're not looking to take the entire country. It's like kicking off a ground war before the air war. It's like landing at Normandy instead of Calais.


do you actually understand anything about logistics? 

 

china within the the 150km coastal belt (ie, draw a silhouette parallel demarker 150kmn that follows the coast) has in excess of 1500 airfields and airstrips capable of handling fighters and light transports.  On your best day you could not neutralise everyoone of those airfields.  Everyone of those airfields is a logistics hub that can fast track troops, equipment or air defence assets to any part of the coast within minutes if not a max of half an hour.

 

the next 150km belt of land has over 500 airfields.  So they have a highly interconnected logistics support grid that an amphibious force cannot even begin to think about destabilising.

 

do you know why there have been no amphib landings (of scale) since Inchon?

Nobody in their right mind is going to go fight china on home ground.



Imagine all those bases on high alert. They are consuming MASSIVE amounts of manpower, fuel, electricity, parts, etc... Why? Because 1 MEU might show up someday. Oh my. It's worth it just to keep them THINKING there's going to be a full-scale invasion. Now you see what I mean? What we if we never invade at all and the chicoms have WASTED a whole lot of time, effort, and money that could've been used elsewhere where REAL action was happening. Kinda like how you are wasting yours with me! You already know you can't beat me or change my mind. The smart thing to do would be to not bother to begin. Which is what the chicoms would do, IF THEY WERE SMART. The USA holds all the cards, baby. Heck, what if we just let Taiwan fall and let the chicoms figure out what to do next. Think of how the US economy will do when we extend shelter to all those talented and hard-working Taiwanese... why... we could stay ahead of china even more!
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 11:10:45 PM

The US can sink plenty of PLAN littorals right now with anti ship missiles, mines and torpedoes.


You are correct. The chicoms would have to be the attacker and they would have to consolidate and make use of their winnings. So they can't just sit bottled up. Cheap mines, torpedoes, and anti-ship missiles would just ruin everything for them!
 
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gf0012-aust       10/15/2007 11:16:53 PM


Imagine all those bases on high alert. They are consuming MASSIVE amounts of manpower, fuel, electricity, parts, etc... Why? Because 1 MEU might show up someday. Oh my. It's worth it just to keep them THINKING there's going to be a full-scale invasion. Now you see what I mean? What we if we never invade at all and the chicoms have WASTED a whole lot of time, effort, and money that could've been used elsewhere where REAL action was happening. Kinda like how you are wasting yours with me!


Do you seriously believe the stuff you write?  Thats now how they are set up.

You already know you can't beat me or change my mind. 

Good grief, are you a kid? This isn't a competition, I'm not trying to change your mind as I've already worked out that you're another Shooter.  You don't understand the basics of warfare and yet you're pontificating over how it will pan out.
The sorry thing with this is that you're publicly demonstrating a complete failure to understand the fundamental issues involved and yet see this as some kind of pecker competition to prove that you're right.
 
Demonstrate some kind of appreciation of what is actually involved and I might take you seriously.
 
If you think this is remotely connected to "beating" me or anyone else, then you need to grow up a little.
 

 
 
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KlubMarcus       10/15/2007 11:23:37 PM
The chicoms have very little in terms of combat experience with massive amounts of troops fighting against a US-type enemy. Clashes against Russia, India, Vietnam, and Tibet just isn't going to cut it. They can't let up for a second because they know how the USA fights. So they are going to have to spend all manner of resources at a tempo that they have never even practised before. If you're so mature, why are you in the situation you are in now? Why are you arguing with a kid? You'd think you'd know better and at least not look like you're getting beaten and flustered to the point of defending yourself so. Bwa ha ha ha!
 
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gf0012-aust       10/15/2007 11:23:43 PM

The US can sink plenty of PLAN littorals right now with anti ship missiles, mines and torpedoes.


Oh come on Nan, I expect better of you in these debates.  Of course they can sink plenty of assets, but the issue in this episodic clash of the titans is what are the objectives?  define the objectives and you get the taskings.  see the taskings and you see the evolution of what each player can bring to bear.  This notion that the chinese are incompetent goes against everything that your blackshoes believe.  they have far more respect about what could happen.  "armchairs" always see it in simplistic numerical terms as though warfare is a binary event.
 
This has seriously turned into a teenagers version of "sink the bismark" without any of the rigorous attention that should be applied to it.
 
I get enough idiotic teenagers on the other forum I mod in thinking that war is a casio event
 
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displacedjim       10/16/2007 10:07:25 AM
If USN thinks there are scenarios where they will move ships into Chinese littoral waters, I hope they make extra sure to fully brief the SecNav, SecDef, and the whole National Security Council that there's no way to sustain that sort of presence during war without a major air campaign against mainland Chinese C4ISR and airfield targets as well.  Even just venturing into most littoral areas means they will certainly be tracked by Chinese surface wave OTH radars and when the shooting starts they will be targeted by SRBMs and by land, air, and sea-based anti-ship cruise missiles, at a minimum.
 
 
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