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Subject: Alien submarine breaks technical barriers
AdamB    5/8/2007 2:40:27 PM
Alien submarine breaks technical barriers [/size] By Brian Milligan Business reporter, BBC News, Barrow, Cumbria, northern England The Royals Navy's Astute is seen as the most advanced submarine yet, probably in the world. The three submarines currently planned are HMS Astute (launched on 8th June), HMS Ambush and HMS Artful. But there could eventually be 4 more to be built after those. "It's a mean looking beast. I think it looks like the alien," remarks Chris Nelson of BAE Systems, as we walk round the front of the Royal Navy's new Astute submarine in Barrow. Looming above us is a construction shed 12 storeys high. Within it are three nuclear-powered submarines at different stages of construction. And as a huge, red neon sign reminds the workforce, the first one is now just 32 days away from launch. But to judge by the scaffolding surrounding it, it's hard to believe it's going to be ready on time. "I'm determined it will be," says operations director Nigel Ward. "However it's a nuclear submarine, and lots of things can go wrong." Secrets intact Under all its covers, Astute is a technological phenomenon. Its nuclear reactor means it'll never need refuelling in the whole of its 25-year life. Since it makes its own air and water, it can circumnavigate the globe without needing to surface. And its weapons systems are so accurate that were it positioned in the English Channel, its cruise missiles could pinpoint targets as far away as North Africa. Indeed, down in the weapons room it looks like a Tomahawk cruise missile is already waiting to be loaded into one of the torpedo tubes. "It's only a dummy," says the man who's keeping a close eye on us. His job is to stop us photographing anything that might give away some of Astute's secret capabilities. Reduced requirements It may be one of the most sophisticated submarines ever built, but the project has been beset with problems. The three submarines are £900m ($1.8bn) over budget and four years behind the original schedule. But a new boss at Barrow, Murray Easton, introduced big changes when he arrived a few years back. A team of psychologists was brought into the yard to improve management effectiveness, and to create better ways of communication. Even now a psychologist is present at every board meeting. Another big innovation, learnt from the America submarine-builder Electric Boat, was to build sections of the submarine vertically rather than horizontally. Equipment can be lowered in with the help of gravity, cutting the need for manpower dramatically. Future missiles It all leads to a prouder, more committed workforce. "We needed help over Easter," says Nigel Ward, "and over 300 men volunteered to work, even though the weather forecast was good." Workers are also enthusiastic about what they have built. "It's a fantastic product," says Andy Ogden as he stands near the conning tower of Astute. "And something the Navy will be extremely proud of when they get their hands on it in a year's time." Three-and-a-half thousand other workers have a vested interest in such customer satisfaction. Because if all goes according to plan, they'll be rewarded with contracts to build four more Astute submarines, and eventually the submarines that will carry the next generation of Britain's nuclear missiles. ASTUTE FACTS Cost: £3.5bn for three subs (but there is a chance there could actually be 7 to be built eventually) Weight: 7,800 tons Length: 97m Time to build: 6 years 4 months Power: pressurized water reactor, fuelled for life Crew: 98 news.bbc.co.uk
 
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Herald1234       5/20/2007 12:40:41 PM




And second, does anyone know how it compares with a Seawolf, the Seawolf is supposed to be 70 times quieter than a LA, so would the Seawolf still make the Astsute look like a piece of sh@it?



Real data on acoustic signature or sonar performance are top secret.(moreover for which frequencies? which aspect etc..)Nobody have an exact figure of relative performance and submarine commanders don't speak publically.

The only think we can guess is based on nations basic technology relative position which is better known, and funding.

No western navy would fund a so costly new class if you don't have a magnitude improvement and global parity on combat survivability and ability.

Seawolf was made 10 years ago and US do not enjoy a 10 years advantage in acoustic signature managaement of Sonar vs UK (or France).

I can only say you from insights, that 10/15 years ago, Trafalgar class was the best SSN in the world outperforming LA class (and I'm french) (like I could say you that M2000C was the most lethal fighter at this time - not true since 1995 of course).

Even if Astute is smaller it do not impact really its signature since it is slower (smaller reactor so as much space for isolation) and still quite similar for its size.

We can guess that new generation of western submarine (Seawolf, Virginia, Astute , Barracuda) is quite similar in signature management and sonar performance.

Now, it is quite normal UK navy put emphasis on Astute performance to justify program and price.

 



FS, you should shear off;
 
From House of Commons 2004 about the HMS Trafalgar;
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More;
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More:
 
 
More;
 
 
US submarines have their own problems, as do the FRENCH, but we have SUBSAFE and the French at least try to address their concerns.
 
It would be fair to say that the British have some problems with their reactor piping welds, their submarine hull paint, as well as fittings and seals, and their safety protocols; which makes any noise casualties they have, that they haven't corrected yet......................................currently minor as a concern in the RN force currently.
 
Herald    
 
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french stratege       5/20/2007 12:48:14 PM
Those are TODAY maintenance problems Herald.
I have said  and I know from several first hand sources that Trafalgar class was dominating everybody in NATO exercise including US Los Angeles class 10/15 years ago.
They had a trick US or French subs did not have and British commanders were good at using it.
It was very difficult to get advantage on them.
 
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Herald1234       5/20/2007 6:14:31 PM

Those are TODAY maintenance problems Herald.

I have said  and I know from several first hand sources that Trafalgar class was dominating everybody in NATO exercise including US Los Angeles class 10/15 years ago.

They had a trick US or French subs did not have and British commanders were good at using it.

It was very difficult to get advantage on them.


Those maintenance and MATERIAL  problems go all the way through the British submarine program, and are persistent,at least as far back as the Trafalgarrs' commissionings, and were not reastricted toi the Trafalgars alone; but have also shown up in the Swiftsures, Vanguards, and in the Upholders as well.
Its also not much of a secret that the British had a certain acoustic management advantage that allowed them to move much faster without generating detectable noise than their US and French counterparts.
 
Add to that, that the Britosh are just about the best trained submariners on the planet, and you don't get the drop on them too often.  
 
Herald
 
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french stratege       5/20/2007 7:48:38 PM
Its also not much of a secret that the British had a certain acoustic management advantage that allowed them to move much faster without generating detectable noise than their US and French counterparts.
The advantage I mentioned for Trafalgar class is NOT about acoustic signature but it gives a considerable advantage in a lot of situation.
 
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Herald1234       5/20/2007 9:16:47 PM




Its also not much of a secret that the British had a certain acoustic management advantage that allowed them to move much faster without generating detectable noise than their US and French counterparts.



The advantage I mentioned for Trafalgar class is NOT about acoustic signature but it gives a considerable advantage in a lot of situation.


I could care less what you think you mean, FS. I KNOW the British have a considerable maneuver edge over their NATO compatriots as well as an undetectable speed advantage. They also have better bathymetric sensors to exploit underwater weather effects. All combined contribute to vastly superior situational awareness and the ability to salently exploit it with their inherently superior training.
Herald
 
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the_boat_guy       5/21/2007 8:58:44 AM
There used to be a persistant rumour in US navy circles that all the UK subs ever did was drive out of faslane and then sit on the bottom for 3 months.  Although it was always said in jest, it came about from the fact that UK subs tended to just 'dissapear' once they reached deep water.  The british reputaion for quiet boats goes back past the trafalgars at swiftsures to the O and P class boats of the 60's and 70's
 
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Herc the Merc    HMS Audacious purchased   5/21/2007 4:00:07 PM
British navy expands even more.
 
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NotUkOnly       5/21/2007 4:49:58 PM

British navy expands even more.


Does   200m Pounds sound right?? Seems "Cheap"  ?????
 
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french stratege       5/21/2007 5:45:55 PM
Sorry Herald, the great advantage british enjoyed with Trafalgar class 10 years ago was not those.
It seems not public so I keep it.
 
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Herald1234    Suit yourself.   5/21/2007 6:21:20 PM
I think you know my opinion of your "opinion".

Herald


 
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