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Subject: Purpose Of Sea Power?
CJH    4/28/2007 7:01:30 PM
IIRC, Mahan wrote that a nation's sea power resided in its merchant fleet and that a navy's purpose is to secure access by this fleet to the world's seas. If this was so a century or more ago, what is the case now? Can we safely dispense with a blue ocean navy although we may retain the means to support ground forces from seaward? How important is unfettered ocean commerce to our nation's security? Is it necessary for us to be responsible for the security of the world's sea lanes? Are there any potential threats to that security?
 
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french stratege       4/29/2007 10:31:55 AM
What is true is that sea commerce need to be protected and also you need to be able to enter of a foreign theater.
sea commerce protection (and so also army equipement convoys) need to cope with underwater threat and above surface threat.
1 :Underwater threat could be handle only by attack submarines and planes plus limited protection of convoys by some helos on merchand ships and towed decoys discarding need of frigates except few carrying towed sonars.
2 :Countering above surface threat needs to suppress/defend against ennemy surface forces and air strike.It can be done by ground aviation since air refuel give range exceeding thousands miles:
-air refueled bombers can strike any surface fleet in whole oceans or destroy ennemy ground bases
-protection of convoy could be done by antiair destroyers and also point defense protection of merchand ships in add on shipping container.
 
A convoy of merchand ship could need only few area air defense destroyers supplemented by those add on protection on merchand ships.
 
Now, aircraft carrier as (stealthy) cruisers having hundred of cruise/ballistic  missiles are more practical means if you want to sustain an offensive against a remote country with massive strike on their land facilities.Indeed ground aviation would need for example 12 hours flights to reach its target (plus added maintenance) while naval aviation would need 3 hours flights and so be able to sustain a much bigger sorties rate.
 
 
 
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kirby1       4/29/2007 4:57:35 PM
Considering the "Bigger is better" mindset that seeems to be going through most civilian shipwrights minds right now, I'd say that a commerce raiding strategy is more viable then ever before.
 
Consider this, you are a small nation about to wage war on America. You have four submarines. Sending those subs against an American CVG would be suicide. Sending them against an American Surface group would be just about nuts. Even if you could get in range, what would your best kill be? Possibly, you could destroy a carrier. That would be the ultimate kill. But more likely, if you do get a shot in, its probably going to be against a Frigate or destroyer. Maybe an LCS. None of those kills are worth losing your submarine or your crew over. There is almost no way in hell that your sub will survive the engagement. Its a suicide attack.
 
But what if you could break one or two of those boats out and go commerce raiding? Just think of the kind of havoc you could cause if you could get your boats to up to Alaska to hunt supertankers. A 300K  ton kill. An environmental disaster equal to or greater then the Exxon Valdez. Imagine the sudden spike in oil prices.  Hole an Alaskan cruise for some severe civilian casualties, and you have yourself one extremely successful sortie. Its risky, Its likely that your sub will be hunted down and destroyed, before it can even get a shot in. But if your boat can make it, and atleast injure a supertanker, then it would definitely be worth losing one of your subs over.
 
The same scenario plays out in the Caribbean, Snap shot some cruiseships, blow a few container ships out of the water, and paralyze the entire gulf of Mexico. It'd be the perfect raiding grounds for a diesel electric boat. I'd recommend bringing along some small arms (Rifles, shotguns, maybe RPGs or ATGMs,) and a zodiac just so you could also hit up some smaller targets without wasting torpedoes. When you chase all the enemy ships into harbor, deploy a few divers with limpet mines and show them that nowhere is safe. When the Americans come charging out after you, flee to Venezualan or Cuban waters. Even if the Cubans or Venezualans don't like you, I doubt they have the capability to give you much in the way of trouble. If The US Navy comes after you, they risk kicking off a war in thier own backyard. The American military could handle it, but I doubt the politicians would let them risk it. (Depends on how many cruiseliners you sink and if any important people were aboard, I guess.)

The point is, theres a lot of sea traffic, and sinking it would make alot of noise. Wait until the American navy is right off your beach, and then see if you can't generate enough noise to drag them back out to sea in search of you.  Split the American  Navy between supporting offensive operations against your home country, and defensive operations against your submarines. Do your best to hurt the economy. Bigger ships mean bigger kills, more fuel or cargo that doesn't make it to the beach.
 
So yeah, to answer your question, abandoning the total domination and control of the Blue water theatre of operations would be an extremely stupid move. If just one enemy submarine or even surface combatant could slip past an American fleet, and go commerce raiding, the consequences would be dire. 
 
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displacedjim    Priorities   4/29/2007 7:22:33 PM
But wars are only won by occupying the other guy's territory.  That takes soldiers, not sailors.  The enemy can't mess with your merchant shipping once you've taken his ports.  Again, soldiers.  Obviously, therefore, the Navy is an ancillary force that exists to support the Army.  The Navy's primary focus should be transporting soldiers to the battle, putting them ashore (including by assault landings/helicopter insertion when necessary), and keeping them supplied while the Army wins the war. Most of all, the Navy needs to emphasize providing effective Close Sea Support (CSS) to the troops.  Of course fulfilling the mission of winning the ground war may require securing sea superiority, but such efforts must remain merely a prerequisite stepping-stone to facilitating accomplishing the real mission. Therefore, construction of naval superiority ships like multi-billion dollar submarines needs to take a back seat to construction of transports, amphibious warfare ships, and aircraft carriers filled with close air support aircraft. Most of all the Navy needs to build a new class of arsenal ship that does nothing but what the Navy ought to be focused on, which is its primary mission of providing CSS. Probably the best way to ensure close co-operation between the support element (the Navy) and the combat element (the Army) would be to put an Army officer onboard each ship, either as the executive officer or even as the commander.  Also, Naval Operations staff needs to be mainly comprised of Army officers. In fact, it would probably be best for CNO to be an Army four-star, preferably with extensive Infantry or Armor and corps-level command experience. That way officers who actually know what its like to fight wars can make sure the Navy provides effective support to the warfighters.  Shoot, I suppose the best solution really would be to abolishing the Navy as a separate branch and just bring it under the Army where it belongs and probably always should have been all along.
 
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perfectgeneral       4/29/2007 8:12:35 PM
Where is the army's front seat in a merchant shipping Vs submarine war Jim? Are you sure all wars are fought on land? I've got my doubts.
 
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Herald1234    Are you nuts?   4/30/2007 12:29:21 AM

Considering the "Bigger is better" mindset that seeems to be going through most civilian shipwrights minds right now, I'd say that a commerce raiding strategy is more viable then ever before.

 

Consider this, you are a small nation about to wage war on America. You have four submarines. Sending those subs against an American CVG would be suicide. Sending them against an American Surface group would be just about nuts. Even if you could get in range, what would your best kill be? Possibly, you could destroy a carrier. That would be the ultimate kill. But more likely, if you do get a shot in, its probably going to be against a Frigate or destroyer. Maybe an LCS. None of those kills are worth losing your submarine or your crew over. There is almost no way in hell that your sub will survive the engagement. Its a suicide attack.

 

But what if you could break one or two of those boats out and go commerce raiding? Just think of the kind of havoc you could cause if you could get your boats to up to Alaska to hunt supertankers. A 300K  ton kill. An environmental disaster equal to or greater then the Exxon Valdez. Imagine the sudden spike in oil prices.  Hole an Alaskan cruise for some severe civilian casualties, and you have yourself one extremely successful sortie. Its risky, Its likely that your sub will be hunted down and destroyed, before it can even get a shot in. But if your boat can make it, and atleast injure a supertanker, then it would definitely be worth losing one of your subs over.

 

The same scenario plays out in the Caribbean, Snap shot some cruiseships, blow a few container ships out of the water, and paralyze the entire gulf of Mexico. It'd be the perfect raiding grounds for a diesel electric boat. I'd recommend bringing along some small arms (Rifles, shotguns, maybe RPGs or ATGMs,) and a zodiac just so you could also hit up some smaller targets without wasting torpedoes. When you chase all the enemy ships into harbor, deploy a few divers with limpet mines and show them that nowhere is safe. When the Americans come charging out after you, flee to Venezualan or Cuban waters. Even if the Cubans or Venezualans don't like you, I doubt they have the capability to give you much in the way of trouble. If The US Navy comes after you, they risk kicking off a war in thier own backyard. The American military could handle it, but I doubt the politicians would let them risk it. (Depends on how many cruiseliners you sink and if any important people were aboard, I guess.)


The point is, theres a lot of sea traffic, and sinking it would make alot of noise. Wait until the American navy is right off your beach, and then see if you can't generate enough noise to drag them back out to sea in search of you.  Split the American  Navy between supporting offensive operations against your home country, and defensive operations against your submarines. Do your best to hurt the economy. Bigger ships mean bigger kills, more fuel or cargo that doesn't make it to the beach.

 

So yeah, to answer your question, abandoning the total domination and control of the Blue water theatre of operations would be an extremely stupid move. If just one enemy submarine or even surface combatant could slip past an American fleet, and go commerce raiding, the consequences would be dire. 



Check American history, fella. We'd be all over that offender nation. Freedom to use the seas in peace is one thing that we will wipe a governement or a nation out to maintain.
 
Herald
 
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displacedjim       4/30/2007 7:13:15 AM

Where is the army's front seat in a merchant shipping Vs submarine war Jim? Are you sure all wars are fought on land? I've got my doubts.


Why, it's right there on the front lines waiting for the Close Sea Support that the Navy is shirking while it wastes resources on its Strategic Torpedoing Campaign.  But that would be typical, since the Navy never has wanted to perform its primary mission of CSS.  If the Army controlled at least the CSS mission, if not the whole Navy like it ought to, then proper emphasis would be paid to building arsenal ships for launching cruise missiles and gunfire at the enemy troops so our warfighters could get the fire support they need to occupy the enemy's ports.  Then we wouldn't need to go chasing their merchant shipping around the globe since they couldn't bring any of it back to their country anyway.
 
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B.Smitty       4/30/2007 2:13:39 PM



Where is the army's front seat in a merchant shipping Vs submarine war Jim? Are you sure all wars are fought on land? I've got my doubts.



Why, it's right there on the front lines waiting for the Close Sea Support that the Navy is shirking while it wastes resources on its Strategic Torpedoing Campaign.  But that would be typical, since the Navy never has wanted to perform its primary mission of CSS.  If the Army controlled at least the CSS mission, if not the whole Navy like it ought to, then proper emphasis would be paid to building arsenal ships for launching cruise missiles and gunfire at the enemy troops so our warfighters could get the fire support they need to occupy the enemy's ports.  Then we wouldn't need to go chasing their merchant shipping around the globe since they couldn't bring any of it back to their country anyway.

I see no good reason for the Army to control the Navy (or Air Force for that matter).  Joint control is exercised at the Joint Staff and SecDef level and by the regional commands.  This is enough, IMHO.

Giving the Navy to the Army would result in the neglect of non "CSS" missions that are also primary Navy missions.  And there's no guarantee the Army would get the "CSS" mission right anyway.  They don't understand Naval warfare issues any better than USN Admirals understand land warfare. 

Now I can see a case for folding the USMC into the Army. 

Just MHO of course.

 
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kirby1       4/30/2007 4:35:44 PM
"Check American history, fella. We'd be all over that offender nation"
 
Exactly, I'm pointing out that theres a reason why. Theres a reason why the Brits sent so many ships out to hunt the Bismark and Prinz Eugen when they broke out. Theres a reason why they chased Admiral Sheer all the way to South America. Theres a reason why they worked so hard to keep the Tirpitz bottled up in port. But if you lose your ability to dominate the open ocean, then you risk gettting royally hosed. Wars may be won on land, but sea and air dominance is the
difference between a quick and easy victory, and a bloodbath to end all bloodbaths.
 
 

 
 
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displacedjim       4/30/2007 8:31:03 PM
Smitty, you of all people should understand.  ;-)
 
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B.Smitty       4/30/2007 9:27:59 PM

Smitty, you of all people should understand.  ;-)


There may be a need, but the services have lots of needs. 

For example, without improving the USN's minesweeping and littoral ASW capabilities, you can make all the fire support and amphib vessels you want, they'll be worthless if you can't get close enough to use them. 

Without improving logistics capabilities, you might get there with a large force, but won't be able to stay.

Besides, there are easier ways to shut down a port than an amphibious assault - just mine the harbor. 
 
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