Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Surface Forces Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Navy has no plans for protection against supersonic Russian missile
reefdiver    3/24/2007 6:09:28 PM
Navy has no plans to deal with the Russian SS-N-27B "Sizzler" missile in attack against aircraft carriers. link www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=a5LkaU0wj714&refer=home
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

perfectgeneral    That item in full...   3/25/2007 1:32:06 AM
The U.S. Navy, after nearly six years of warnings from Pentagon testers, still lacks a plan for defending aircraft carriers against a supersonic Russian-built missile, according to current and former officials and Defense Department documents.

The missile, known in the West as the ``Sizzler,'' has been deployed by China and may be purchased by Iran. Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England has given the Navy until April 29 to explain how it will counter the missile, according to a Pentagon budget document.

The Defense Department's weapons-testing office judges the threat so serious that its director, Charles McQueary, warned the Pentagon's chief weapons-buyer in a memo that he would move to stall production of multibillion-dollar ship and missile programs until the issue was addressed.

``This is a carrier-destroying weapon,'' said Orville Hanson, who evaluated weapons systems for 38 years with the Navy. ``That's its purpose.''

``Take out the carriers'' and China ``can walk into Taiwan,'' he said. China bought the missiles in 2002 along with eight diesel submarines designed to fire it, according to Office of Naval Intelligence spokesman Robert Althage.

A Pentagon official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Russia also offered the missile to Iran, although there's no evidence a sale has gone through. In Iranian hands, the Sizzler could challenge the ability of the U.S. Navy to keep open the Strait of Hormuz, through which an estimated 25 percent of the world's oil traffic flows.

Fast and Low-Flying

``This is a very low-flying, fast missile,'' said retired Rear Admiral Eric McVadon, a former U.S. naval attache in Beijing. ``It won't be visible until it's quite close. By the time you detect it to the time it hits you is very short. You'd want to know your capabilities to handle this sort of missile.''

The Navy's ship-borne Aegis system, deployed on cruisers and destroyers starting in the early 1980s, is designed to protect aircraft-carrier battle groups from missile attacks. But current and former officials say the Navy has no assurance Aegis, built by Lockheed Martin Corp., is capable of detecting, tracking and intercepting the Sizzler.

``This was an issue when I walked in the door in 2001,'' Thomas Christie, the Defense Department's top weapons-testing official from mid-2001 to early 2005, said in an interview.

`A Major Issue'

``The Navy recognized this was a major issue, and over the years, I had continued promises they were going to fully fund development and production'' of missiles that could replicate the Sizzler to help develop a defense against it, Christie said. ``They haven't.''

The effect is that in a conflict, the U.S. ``would send a billion-dollar platform loaded with equipment and crew into harm's way without some sort of confidence that we could defeat what is apparently a threat very near on the horizon,'' Christie said.

The Navy considered developing a program to test against the Sizzler ``but has no plans in the immediate future to initiate such a developmental effort,'' Naval Air Systems Command spokesman Rob Koon said in an e-mail.

Lieutenant Bashon Mann, a Navy spokesman, said the service is aware of the Sizzler's capabilities and is ``researching suitable alternatives'' to defend against it. ``U.S. naval warships have a layered defense capability that can defend against various missile threats,'' Mann said.

Raising Concerns

McQueary, head of the Pentagon's testing office, raised his concerns about the absence of Navy test plans for the missile in a Sept. 8, 2006, memo to Ken Krieg, undersecretary of defense for acquisition. He also voiced concerns to Deputy Secretary England.

In the memo, McQuery said that unless the Sizzler threat was addressed, his office wouldn't approve test plans necessary for production to begin on several other projects, including Northrop Grumman Corp.'s new $35.8 billion CVN-21 aircraft-carrier project; the $36.5 billion DDG-1000 destroyer project being developed by Northrop and General Dynamics Corp.; and two Raytheon Corp. projects, the $6 billion Standard Missile-6 and $1.1

 
Quote    Reply

perfectgeneral    That item in full...   3/25/2007 1:32:30 AM
The U.S. Navy, after nearly six years of warnings from Pentagon testers, still lacks a plan for defending aircraft carriers against a supersonic Russian-built missile, according to current and former officials and Defense Department documents.

The missile, known in the West as the ``Sizzler,'' has been deployed by China and may be purchased by Iran. Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England has given the Navy until April 29 to explain how it will counter the missile, according to a Pentagon budget document.

The Defense Department's weapons-testing office judges the threat so serious that its director, Charles McQueary, warned the Pentagon's chief weapons-buyer in a memo that he would move to stall production of multibillion-dollar ship and missile programs until the issue was addressed.

``This is a carrier-destroying weapon,'' said Orville Hanson, who evaluated weapons systems for 38 years with the Navy. ``That's its purpose.''

``Take out the carriers'' and China ``can walk into Taiwan,'' he said. China bought the missiles in 2002 along with eight diesel submarines designed to fire it, according to Office of Naval Intelligence spokesman Robert Althage.

A Pentagon official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Russia also offered the missile to Iran, although there's no evidence a sale has gone through. In Iranian hands, the Sizzler could challenge the ability of the U.S. Navy to keep open the Strait of Hormuz, through which an estimated 25 percent of the world's oil traffic flows.

Fast and Low-Flying

``This is a very low-flying, fast missile,'' said retired Rear Admiral Eric McVadon, a former U.S. naval attache in Beijing. ``It won't be visible until it's quite close. By the time you detect it to the time it hits you is very short. You'd want to know your capabilities to handle this sort of missile.''

The Navy's ship-borne Aegis system, deployed on cruisers and destroyers starting in the early 1980s, is designed to protect aircraft-carrier battle groups from missile attacks. But current and former officials say the Navy has no assurance Aegis, built by Lockheed Martin Corp., is capable of detecting, tracking and intercepting the Sizzler.

``This was an issue when I walked in the door in 2001,'' Thomas Christie, the Defense Department's top weapons-testing official from mid-2001 to early 2005, said in an interview.

`A Major Issue'

``The Navy recognized this was a major issue, and over the years, I had continued promises they were going to fully fund development and production'' of missiles that could replicate the Sizzler to help develop a defense against it, Christie said. ``They haven't.''

The effect is that in a conflict, the U.S. ``would send a billion-dollar platform loaded with equipment and crew into harm's way without some sort of confidence that we could defeat what is apparently a threat very near on the horizon,'' Christie said.

The Navy considered developing a program to test against the Sizzler ``but has no plans in the immediate future to initiate such a developmental effort,'' Naval Air Systems Command spokesman Rob Koon said in an e-mail.

Lieutenant Bashon Mann, a Navy spokesman, said the service is aware of the Sizzler's capabilities and is ``researching suitable alternatives'' to defend against it. ``U.S. naval warships have a layered defense capability that can defend against various missile threats,'' Mann said.

Raising Concerns

McQueary, head of the Pentagon's testing office, raised his concerns about the absence of Navy test plans for the missile in a Sept. 8, 2006, memo to Ken Krieg, undersecretary of defense for acquisition. He also voiced concerns to Deputy Secretary England.

In the memo, McQuery said that unless the Sizzler threat was addressed, his office wouldn't approve test plans necessary for production to begin on several other projects, including Northrop Grumman Corp.'s new $35.8 billion CVN-21 aircraft-carrier project; the $36.5 billion DDG-1000 destroyer project being developed by Northrop and General Dynamics Corp.; and two Raytheon Corp. projects, the $6 billion Standard Missile-6 and $1.1

 
Quote    Reply

perfectgeneral    Hard to post when the server does this:   3/25/2007 1:35:19 AM

Timeout expired.  The timeout period elapsed prior to completion of the operation or the server is not responding.

Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.Data.SqlClient.SqlException: Timeout expired.  The timeout period elapsed prior to completion of the operation or the server is not responding.

Source Error:

An unhandled exception was generated during the execution of the current web request. Information regarding the origin and location of the exception can be identified using the exception stack trace below.

Stack Trace:

[SqlException (0x80131904): Timeout expired.  The timeout period elapsed prior to completion of the operation or the server is not responding.]
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlConnection.OnError(SqlException exception, Boolean breakConnection) +857418
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlInternalConnection.OnError(SqlException exception, Boolean breakConnection) +735030
System.Data.SqlClient.TdsParser.ThrowExceptionAndWarning(TdsParserStateObject stateObj) +188
System.Data.SqlClient.TdsParser.Run(RunBehavior runBehavior, SqlCommand cmdHandler, SqlDataReader dataStream, BulkCopySimpleResultSet bulkCopyHandler, TdsParserStateObject stateObj) +1838
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlCommand.FinishExecuteReader(SqlDataReader ds, RunBehavior runBehavior, String resetOptionsString) +149
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlCommand.RunExecuteReaderTds(CommandBehavior cmdBehavior, RunBehavior runBehavior, Boolean returnStream, Boolean async) +886
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlCommand.RunExecuteReader(CommandBehavior cmdBehavior, RunBehavior runBehavior, Boolean returnStream, String method, DbAsyncResult result) +132
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlCommand.InternalExecuteNonQuery(DbAsyncResult result, String methodName, Boolean sendToPipe) +415
System.Data.SqlClient.SqlCommand.ExecuteNonQuery() +135
www.strategypage.com.reply.commentButton_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) +1505
System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e) +105
System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +107
System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.System.Web.UI.IPostBackEventHandler.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +7
System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(IPostBackEventHandler sourceControl, String eventArgument) +11
System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(NameValueCollection postData) +33
System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain(Boolean includeStagesBeforeAsyncPoint, Boolean includeStagesAfterAsyncPoint) +5102

 
Quote    Reply

flamingknives       3/25/2007 7:17:44 AM
You'd have to find someone willing to sell them. Since the marketing point is, apparently, that the US cannot defend against it, why sell it to them so that they can develop countermeasures?
 
Quote    Reply

Herald1234    The SSN-27B   3/25/2007 12:08:40 PM
is the KLUB with a rocket-propelled killbody in place of the usual warhead.
 
It was a desperate Russian attempt to improve its, the KLUB's, very poor subsonic terminal homing characteristics. This solution is no better than any other seaskimming horizon limit MACH 3 AShM missile solution, the Russians have tried since the 1980s. 
 
I'm not impressed. Somebody is trying to roust up a scare for some political reason. I would be more frightened of Russian torpedoes than this crap missile.
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

ASL       4/6/2007 6:55:52 PM
I would like to propose a rephrased and less sensational thread title:
"Navy has no plans that it is willing to tell the general public and the Chinese about for protection ahainst supersonic Russian missile"
 
I just completed a tour as a Surface Warfare Officer on a DDG homeported in Japan.  I don't seem to recall "Holy NFBSK, WTF are we gonna do?!?!?!?!" being the way that we described combating this missile.  This missile presents certain difficulties that make it a formidable threat, provided it works.  However, as of my departure from 7th fleet all of 2 days ago, I seem to recall that there still hadn't been a succesful test of this missile by the Chinese. 
 
It's an ongoing back and forth.  We came out with AEGIS so the Russians came out with the Sunburn, specifically designed too be too fast and too unpredictable for AEGIS to track, even with SPY.  So we designed a countermeasure for it and came out with some new missiles and made some improvements to CIWS. So then they designed the Sizzler.  Rest assured, the Navy has not, as the article claims, been sitting on its hands the last few years just hoping the Sizzler will go away.  To an extent, there are measures to defend against the missile, but certainly there is ALWAYS more to be desired.
 
Missile defense is not an all or nothing game.  Not only are there no 100% effective countermeasures, there are also no 100% effective missiles.  Assuming they even get it to work realiably, even if a Sizzler hits a surface combatant the size of a destroyer (much smaller than a carrier obviously) that doesn't mean it's going to send the ship to the bottom in a single blow.  In fact, with almost all anti-ship missiles, even the big ones, the best you can reasonably expect is a soft kill that makes the target incapable of conducting its required operations, but leaves it floating.  Likewise, even with perfect countermeasures, no ship can defend itself or a carrier completely if enough missiles are launched and timed appropriately to impact within moments of each other.
 
Right now the Chinese have an imperfect missile with a slew of difficulties in launching it, to say nothing of getting it to actually a acquire target, even one that isn't over the horizon.  They're working on it no doubt.  Similarly, the US has an imperfect or at least untested, but not entirely useless, means of defense against this threat.
 
Truth be told, it's torpedoes and small boats that scare the crap out of me.  I actually had a nightmare once about transiting a strait with a swarm of fast attack craft comming at me from one direction, and no sooner did I give the order to turn around and come up to flank than CIC reported hydrophone effects from the opposite direction and knowing that there wasn't enough room to evade a torpedo in the strait.  Fortunately, I woke up before I had to decide what to do next.
 
Quote    Reply

eldnah       4/16/2007 5:00:36 PM
I believe the USN is now employing a Mach 2.5 sea skimming terminally manuverable target drone made by Orbital Sciences, the  GQM-136A Coyote to develop defences against the SS-N-27B and its cousins. I would suspect information on the current state of defence development against such missiles is quite secret 
 
Quote    Reply

eldnah       4/16/2007 5:10:39 PM
The USN is using a Mach 2.5 sea skimming terminally manuverable target drone, the Orbital Science GQM-136A "Coyote" to develop counters to the Russian SS-N-27B and its cousins. I would suspect the status of the research and development is top secret.
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy