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Subject: Another Flight III DDG Arliegh Burke Proposal
westwords2020    6/30/2006 10:35:20 AM
I have in mind less drastic changes but changes nonetheless. I would slightly lengthen the forward section to accomodate OTO-Melara 5 inch Compact mount with 62 calibre barrel in a redesigned and more stealthy gun house and place a RAM launcher on either side of the mount with independant elevation but training with the gun. I'd go further and have a twin 5/62 for an achievable burst rate of fire of 40+40=80 rds/min for better AA/antimissile role. The RAM launchers would also be able to fire the antitorpedo torpedo in developement and Nulka hovering decoys as well as RAM antimissile missiles with the upgrade enabling anti helo, aircraft and surface fire modes. Where Phlanx was, I would install the 57mm Mk 110 both in fore and aft Phlanx positions. The forward VLS would be increased to 64 cells for a total of 128 VLS cells. The stern would be lengthen and the ship made a flush decker to provide a stern hull depth able to take the aft VLS and a second OTO-Melara twin five incher with RAM launchers. Forward from the stern would be the helo hangar with space for a pair of V-22s or three helos or twin helos and VTUAVs depending on mission requirements. I'd install full size torpedo tubes for wire guided Mk48 in the transom in a pair. DDG1000 improvements that were practical to install would be fitted mainly in the dual band sonar, MFTAS array. Radars would remain SPY 1D series and GFCS provisions made supplemented by IR/EO systems. This should make a formidable ship and is inspired by the studies for SC-21 that included a maximum capability version of DDG-51 class.
 
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KlubMarcus       2/8/2007 2:56:52 AM
1. Who is going to plug the holes in the hull that the enemy is shooting in you?
2. Who will put out the fires?
3. Who will isolate and reroute the battle damage mechanical casualties?
4. Who will pry the lids off the missile cells when they won't open or clear the gun jam?
5. When the computer dies, who will steer the ship or keep the engine shafts turning?    
6. Who will navigate and FIGHT in all of the chaos of battle when 1-5 happens to you ALL AT THE SAME TIME? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) The same smaller crew that is on-board because when the enemy is shooting at you, even a large crew is kept busy until the shooting dies down. 2) Tha same smaller crew using automated fire control systems plus manual systems for back-up. 3) The same smaller crew can do the job. If the battle damage is so significant that you need to do those kinds of "ghetto-rigging" repair work, then you're going to have to wait until the enemy stops shooting. 4) Prying the lids off the missile cells? Clear the gun jam? You don't need a lot of people to do that, if the need ever actually arises. 5) The back-up computer that the smaller crew put online. 6) If 1-5 happen at the same time, you're better off signalling for help so you can concentrate on keeping the ship afloat with a large or small crew. US Navy ships are overmanned for two reasons: tradition and big budgets. We're smart enough to figure out how to run a ship with 1/3 the manpower but the the US Navy has been doing things "the Navy way" for a long time. Now that budgets are getting smaller, it's time to cut personnel costs: training, healthcare, payroll, assorted benefits, berthing, perishables, etc...
 
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Lawman       11/1/2007 9:25:18 AM
It always surprises me when these threads pop up again!
 
On the damage control issue, it is worth noting some of the safety measures that have been developed over the last 30 or so years. When it comes to simply putting fires out, by far the easiest and safest way to do it is to simply release halon, carbon dioxide, argon, or one of a dozen or so gaseous fire suppression agents. This works best for sections that are not occupied - i.e. train the crew to get the heck out of the room as fast as possible, and trigger the fire suppression system. Where this isn't possible, you use the normal fire extinguishers, or just give the people gas masks, allowing the fire suppression system to work. This sort of system works very well, and is used heavily in industry, for good reason - the last thing you need is to have fifty guys spraying water, which can disturb the ship's stability. For plugging holes in the hull, again, there are chemical agents which can be used, which release rapid hardening foam, and can plug pretty big holes. It isn't pretty, but it works, and works fast! You then put into drydock, and simply remove the foam, and weld up the hole, when you have the chance.
 
All in all, one of the biggest concerns in damage control is always the presence of crew members in affected areas, which means taking special measures to rescue them, while still having to try and control the damage. One of the other major changes that helps damage control is to abandon the endless piping - instead, you simply install a 'backbone', for power, networking, air con, and water. The piping then runs through a separated trunking, preferably through sealed sections, filled with nitrogen. Each compartment then just plugs into the backbone, drawing whatever it needs, without running exposed piping through all the compartments. Frankly, the best way to manage damage control is not to carry hundreds of fire-fighters, but to limit the damage that can happen, by smart design!
 
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stinger       2/14/2008 10:25:37 PM
I really do like the addition of the 57mm or maybe the 30mm that are being installed on LPD, and adding a RAM.
 
Also is there a possibility that they might add a stern ramp for the RIHBs???
 
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stinger       2/14/2008 11:00:06 PM
 
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stinger       2/14/2008 11:01:30 PM
 
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gf0012-aust       2/14/2008 11:15:10 PM


On the damage control issue, it is worth noting some of the safety measures that have been developed over the last 30 or so years. When it comes to simply putting fires out, by far the easiest and safest way to do it is to simply release halon, carbon dioxide, argon, or one of a dozen or so gaseous fire suppression agents.

Is halon still acceptable?  we banned it from secure lock downs a few years ago due to its lethality to anything organic that breathed oxygen and had blood coursing through its body.  (and not everyone may get to an ox mask in time)

 
 
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Nichevo       2/15/2008 10:46:56 PM
Well, in the data center we kept scuba masks, but yes, Halon awareness was a big deal for things like work orders when you had to pull up the raised floor to run cable.  Would it be too hard to equip everybody with a 5 min rebreather?  I suppose James Bond's vest-pocket rebreather in Thunderball was fiction but if you don't need an hour's worth of O2 then perhaps something could be done. 

That said, modern speedboats are practically unsinkable because the fiberglass hull is filled with flotable foam.  Could this not be used in warships?  Either foam in place, or foaming systems to force the water out of the ship or at least to seal the breach, not unlike self-sealing tires?  Pose the question of what would be needed to solve Herald's problems with technology, then go out and develop the technology.  For instance, quad redundant circuits with distributed pathways; explosive bolts to blow off missile hatches.  If VLS cells go $625K apiece (WOW!!!) then you should be getting something for that money.  I don't see why you don't just design them frangible and disposable.  Let the missile blast its way out.  We've given up reloading at sea, reusability is pointless except perhaps in narrow lifecycle costs.

 
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Nichevo       2/15/2008 10:59:53 PM
I guess USVs have been considered?  If you want to shell the shore with a 5" gun, what's the smallest 30kt? hull you can mount a gun, autoloader and 100? 1000? rounds in?  Drop it over the side like a lifeboat and send it bravely into the littorals.  If it comes back, it's yours...if it doesn't, it never was ;>  Carry a dozen aboard a big ship; throwaways.  Something like a 24' cabin cruiser for that burthen, maybe?  What would such cost?  They wouldn't have to brave sea state eleven or have transoceanic range or whatever.  No turret, you point the hull.  (Stability?  Punt.  I dunno, outriggers, pods.  Guided shells.)  Damage control is being made of stealth-ish nonflammable composites and being filled with foam and using automated Halon or the like.  Do you need a man in the loop?  Make an armored cockpit with an escape capsule.

Herald, be a good fellow and cost that.  (Then you can tell me why it would suck. )


For that matter - hey, Benelli.  That would be one use for my JSA/mini-C130/C-129 1/.2.  A little Spectre to fly into the littoral, put 105mm (155mm?  5" = 122mm IIRC) shell on target.  Range would be much better fired from on high and an aircraft would be harder to hit than any ship.  I suppose it could even be a seaplane if CATOBAR is impossible.
 
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gf0012-aust       2/15/2008 11:08:16 PM

If VLS cells go $625K apiece (WOW!!!) then you should be getting something for that money.  I don't see why you don't just design them frangible and disposable.  Let the missile blast its way out.  We've given up reloading at sea, reusability is pointless except perhaps in narrow lifecycle costs.

Aren't you basically describing an All Up Cannister?  No need to reinvent the wheel. If you want to gussy it up then you just make them a dismount with an conformal exoskin .....

 
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Nichevo       2/16/2008 1:54:18 AM
Not that I understood your first or third sentence, gf ;>, but that's (I guess) how I thought VLS cells worked before Herald edumacated me with his dollar figure costing the VLSF/T.  I've seen rockets that burst the cover of the tube on launch.  How could some fiberglass or Al pipe and wiring cost $625K?
 
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