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Subject: Encouraging The Americans To Play Rough With China
SYSOP    5/19/2015 5:47:10 AM
 
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gandalf    Only 160+km from the Philippine mainland   5/19/2015 11:35:24 AM
It's a crucial difference. Palawan is a big island and closest to most of the Spratly Islands, but it is west and south of Scarborough Shoal. Scarborough Shoal is just off of the west coast of the Luzon mainland, actually closer to Subic Bay than to Palawan.
 
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HR    This is nothing but a land grab by the Chinese   5/19/2015 1:36:24 PM
Or better said a sea grab... it will go no where. The only thing keeping the neighbors from jumping in is that Chinese investment is so huge and no one wants to end that. But if the Chinese slow down economically they will all get more aggressive... even the corrupt Philippines.
 
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keffler25       5/19/2015 3:23:59 PM
Lol.
 
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tobiathan    Odd   5/19/2015 6:59:27 PM
the Phillipines couldn't wait to be rid of the US in the 80's...
 
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Nate Dog    All nations do it   5/20/2015 12:40:30 AM
They all grab what they can.
There are no goodies or baddies here, just those that can, and those that bitch about not being able to and cry poor.
 
Israel did something even nastier in the mid 00's. Hammered out an EEZ with Greece, Turkey and Cyprus, offered lebanon some piece of paper to sign which lebanon said they dont sign anything with Israels name on it. Pretty much stitched up the eastern med. No one gave a shit, thought Israel was after some sort of fishing rights, so the others signed and agreed to it.
Waited 5 months for appearances sake, and then mentioned that they had discovered X amount of natural gas in the zone that, oops, happens to be in Israels EEZ.  
Turkey was livid. Cyprus was ecstatic that some of it was within their EEZ. Created a natural ally out of country that didn't give 2 hoots about Israel before, and made a friend out of Greece by sticking it to the Turks.
 
 we all do it
 
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joe6pack       5/20/2015 12:32:58 PM
>the Phillipines couldn't wait to be rid of the US in the 80's...
 

The olde "You will miss us when we are gone.." eh ?
 
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joe6pack    Nate   5/20/2015 12:44:45 PM
Does your analogy totally hold up? (Oh, I get the take what we can point)
 
But, while my south pacific geography isn't what it probably should be..isn't it like 1,500 miles + between China and some of the territory they are claiming? 
 
I'm thinking people might have had some tougher questions if Israel went to claim some of the rocks just offshore from Gibraltar. (I was going to say Ireland.. but too far.. even for the Chinese )
 
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Nate Dog    More along the lines   5/20/2015 7:43:16 PM
Of no one with significant power anywhere near that can do too much about the claim. So the claims will keep getting made. Unless the U.S. steps in.

For example, i'd say the south china sea, even the farthest reaches of it, are still closer to mainland China than say, the Caribbean is to the continental United States. Yet American interests have spent the last century plus using everything  from gun boat diplomacy to straight up diplomatic bullying, chasing all other major powers away from 'your backyard'
In context, Israel is a tiny pissant country, laying claim to gas fields closer in some part to Egypt, in some parts to Cyprus, than they are to Israel, yet the 'right of might' will see these fields firmly in Israeli hands for the next 3 decades, or till they've bled them dry.
 
 
 
 
 
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keffler25       5/20/2015 9:59:13 PM
Seapower 101. (Israel better learn this one in a hurry.)
 
Weapons only deny ise. Platforms control use because of presence   So if you want to hang onto the eastern Med riches, you need to work on counter-ship and counter-air and develop a class of  IDF fighter along the lines of the SEALS and/or a naval police, because as soon as the drill platforms for the natural gas fields  go in, the terrorists will come sniffing around.  That is a US Coast Guard nightmare in the Caribbean right now.  
 
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Nate Dog    Sea Power, IDF style   5/21/2015 8:47:00 AM
I think that's the germs of what Israel is trying to do in the eastern Med.
 
Hence, the massive upgrades to the Sa'ar 5's to something that the U.S. proposed, 5.5 Upgraded AA missiles to area denial,  sea lane control,etc. Plus mounting AA batteries on the NG platforms, and running unmanned boats on patrol.
6 operational type 209 subs within 3 years, call it 1 - 2 on station at any time. Purchase of 4 more Corvettes from Germany, available within 4 years, plus, indigenous Sa'ar 72 mini corvettes starting to come online from 2015/16 at a rate of another one every 8 months. 

Plus extended range air cover, as Israel owns more aerial refuelling assets than all the Mediterranean operators combined, plus the only AWACS operators in the eastern med. 
You get my drift, think Israel is building the appropriate assets to hold onto its newly won spoils. 
 
 
I guess what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way, is that raw as it is, China has the worlds second largest economy, its nearly twice the size of 3rd place. China asserting control over what truly is its backyard is inevitable. 
Shame for its regional neighbours, the strong do as they wish, the weak go to the wall. If you think the west is in any way past that, 
Please see U.S. involvement in M.E. conflicts, Israel grab in the med, French colonial conquests in North Africa, winning commercial development rights of oil and mining interests in exchange for quelling rebellions in the guise of Islamic uprising, Australian intervention in creating East Timor in exchange for mining rights or funding 21 OPV's to prop up friendly Pacific nations. It goes on and on and on.
We all do it, we just don't like when our enemies do it.
I don't think there's much we can do to stop the Chinese expansion in what is its equivalent of the Pond. Shy of starting an actual shooting war. We could no more stop this than stopping Chinese economic development. 
 
 
 
 
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