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Subject: India's Arjun Tank Disaster
HeavyMetal    2/6/2005 1:56:35 AM
Pakistan?s tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan?s technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan?s effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank ?Arjun?, which is still not in production after 16 years of ?tinkering? and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan?s Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service. India has a large manufacturing base with 39 ordnance factories employing over 550,000 workers and producing a variety of military equipment, arms and ammunition for the three services. Some of these factories she inherited at the time of independence in 1947 and others she built later with much foreign assistance from the former Soviet Union and the western democracies. India?s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is large as well including ground, air and sea components with a manpower strength of around 40,000 scientists and unlimited financial backing. Over and above these India has eight defence PSUs (public sector units). All these account for around Rs 15,000 crore of the annual defence consumption According to the Journal of Military Ordnance: ?After the 1971 war with Pakistan, senior Indian Officers decided that the Army needed more powerful and reliable tanks, ones that were especially suited to the harsh desert conditions on the northwestern frontier that borders on Pakistan. These conclusions led to the initiation of the MBT-80 (later Arjun) tank project in 1974.? The Army?s requirement or what is known in military jargon as the GSQR (General Staff Qualitative Requirement) in other words the official statement of the users requirement called for the development of a main battle tank weighing 52 tons or less. The Army wanted a tank capable of operating in the extremely hot, dry and sandy conditions found in Rajasthan along the Pakistan border. It wanted a more powerful 120-mm rifled main gun and also state-of-the art, meaning enhanced protection and mobility. The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army?s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even ?freeze? the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the ?Chetek? was produced and displayed on India?s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named ?Arjun?. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994. The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was ?frozen? for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army?s ?diluted? requirements. Despite the Army?s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a ?fait accompli? and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results. The results of the 1997 field trials were so bad that they prompted India?s Comptroller and Auditor General to issue a scathing report in mid-1998 about the serious design flaws in the tank and to complain about a 20-fold increase in development costs. This did not deter the Ministry of Defence from placing an order for another 124 Arjun tanks in 1999. Politics and other considerations, it seems, were taking precedence over the Army?s operational requirements. This was being done while India was negotiating for the purchase of Russian T-90S tanks, which were later to be produced under licence in India. Some confusion was consequently apparent at the g
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 2:56:20 AM
Pakistan may indeed have copied, reverse engineered, etc, etc But every established defense expert has cited the Pakistan's Al Khalid Tank as a top quality Tank where as they have been very critical of the Indian Arjun Tank. Look its ok to be patriotic, but when you dwell into virtuall stupidity and moronic posting to justify your arguments, you lose respect and credibility as a poster. So please refrain from such postings, and debate on factual basis.
 
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trustedsourceofinfo    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 3:14:21 AM
It depends you're looking at it from which perspective.The Al Kalid will be pitted against the T-90 in a battlefield.But if you talk abt ingenuity and indigenous development then as 'jawan' suggested we've moved onto the Arjin MK II..And this is usually the normal process when you try and develop a product in your own units.
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 4:41:11 AM
You may have moved on to the development of Arjun II But how long do you think that Tank will be battle worthy ? It took almost 30 years before the Indian Army finally gave up on Arjun I. Arjun II may result in much more improvement due to lessons learned but I seriously doubt that Arjun II can be inducted in the Indian Army any time soon. And you are right, the T-90 Russian Tanks out class the Pakistan's Al-Khalid Tank. But Pakistan has also learned its lessons from the 1971 as many of their Generals have stated. Pakistan aims to fight a defensive war and then launching a limited offensive before a UN or USA introduced cease fire. In a defensive war, Arjun Tanks with thier massive weight and failing under intense heat could be subject to intense anti-tank fire from Pakistani Soldiers. I highly doubt that Pakistan will pit its tanks against your T-90 Tank in a major Tank Battle. But rather, the Pakistani Armor will be kept in reserve, and once the Indian offensive has pettered out, then Pakistan will launch a limited offensive on its own and given the fact that the Al-Khalid is lighter, more mobile, it can achieve great speed and cover large number of distances.
 
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Jawan    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 6:46:23 AM
<>>> Paki Defense Experts don?t count much Mister, AL Khalid is crappy third class tank. IT is COPIED and it has no survivability with ARJUN MK II. Quality and PAKISTAN don?t go together. STEALING technology, reverse engineering as u seem to agree is the Pakistan way of development. Arjun might have taken 30 years to develop, but the invaluable things learned over its development process with come very handy in developing Arjun Mk II and probably III too. Also Tank-Ex which would be an advanced lighter tank which India is currently developing will be way ahead of whatever the Pak Armored corps will have. STUPIDITY and MORONIC postings are your Trait. Get some education, Madrasas don?t tell u much about the rest of the world. Ignorance does not prove ur fancy theories. Pakistan can never NEVER come close to acheving or being par with INDIA. AL KHALID LOL, frigging third class tank A COPY OF A COPY. First MAKE a COPY of tank urself, I guess that would be too difficult without the Chinese!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 8:25:40 AM
lolz, people in grade school have stopped saying such nonsense gibberish debate with facts and not fiction its ok to be patriotic but when you go on a level of utter stupidity you lose credibility faster than the Iraqi Information Minister in 2003
 
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Jawan    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 11:25:58 AM
May be u need to examine ur BRAINS!!, but I seriously doubt u have ANY. Facts !! read a whole lotta previous posts, I dont like repeating myself. Make an effort, get some knowledge. DO not blabber around too much!! May be madarsa talk i guess.
 
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Jawan    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT=DEBATE with Marshall   1/9/2006 11:28:18 AM
Nothing much to debate with you. U dont know anything about anything. Guess u dont know much about Pakistan. I certainly know that u do not know anything about INDIA or for that Matter CHINA!!!! There is nothing to debate with you!! go right head and post as much as gibberish u want too. Facts dont mean much to u, anyways!!! Will respond to any of ur any intelligent posts which make sense!! not gibberish
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT=DEBATE with Marshall   1/9/2006 8:13:04 PM
you just proved my point
 
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counterstrike    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster-field-MARSHALL   1/10/2006 7:08:44 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>You may have moved on to the development of Arjun II But how long do you think that Tank will be battle worthy ? It took almost 30 years before the Indian Army finally gave up on Arjun I. Arjun II may result in much more improvement due to lessons learned but I seriously doubt that Arjun II can be inducted in the Indian Army any time soon. << You don?t get the whole idea, do you? India is now importing T-90?s with transfer of technology which allows it to be manufactured in India. So you are wrong in saying that Pakistan is able to manufacture a better tank. It is India which is doing a better job. And it is not about whether it will be battle worthy when it is developed, but it is all about developing a indigenous tank. If you ask The question how long will INDIA continue to import tanks? Today INDIA has the T-90s and INDIA is producing it. But somewhere INDIA has to stop. After the T-90 is INDIA going to import the T-100, the T-200 or the T-300? No, That?s when this experience will help. When Israel first produced the Merkava MBT, Ariel Sharon (presently Prime Minister of Israel) was the DG Combat Vehicles. He walked up to the team and asked them what was the problem. After the team explained the problems, he said that this particular tank would be called Mark I and that they would produce it despite all the problems. The Mark I would be given to the troops and work would start on the Mark II, which would be better than this one. That is how the Israelis did it. And this how India will do it! Not like a bunch of copycats who are better of calling a XEROX as a original copy. IT WILL HIT THEM IN THE LONG RUN. Somewhere INDIA has to start producing. Somewhere INDIA need to have the capacity within themselves to be able to do that and then improve that equipment. Presently this is just not happening as planned but will happen. >>And you are right, the T-90 Russian Tanks out class the Pakistan's Al-Khalid Tank.<< That finishes the business. >>But Pakistan has also learned its lessons from the 1971 as many of their Generals have stated.<< well, Better Said than done! >>Pakistan aims to fight a defensive war and then launching a limited offensive before a UN or USA introduced cease fire. In a defensive war, Arjun Tanks with thier massive weight and failing under intense heat could be subject to intense anti-tank fire from Pakistani Soldiers.<< LOL? what are you up to??? Mixing 1971 with 2006-******? In 1971 india were on the offensive because they had to liberate Dhaka before the so called cease fire comes into place. But now India has no reason to be on the offensive never has India been on the offensive in the history of indo-pak wars except for 1971 if we could dismiss the preemptive air strike on India by pak as an act of desperation. For the war to start it must be done by Pakistan. So they must be on the offensive and not India. Wrong calculations! Mr. FIELD MARSHALL! >>I highly doubt that Pakistan will pit its tanks against your T-90 Tank in a major Tank Battle.<< well IN THAT CASE Pakistan can never use the tanks. Because the current number of Arjun tanks in operation are very few and they wont be produced in great numbers unless the field problems are solved hence it is highly unlikely they will see the battle field in its current inept state and hence Pakistan has to face the T-90?s or just forget using their tanks. >>But rather, the Pakistani Armor will be kept in reserve, and once the Indian offensive has pettered out, then Pakistan will launch a limited offensive on its own and given the fact that the Al-Khalid is lighter, more mobile, it can achieve great speed and cover large number of distances.<< As I said if they are going to wait for the Arjuns to come to fight them then they will have to wait until they are completely run over! India will be better off with T-90?s, they have that in more numbers than Arjun which may not see the light soon. India MAY use the arjuns rather as an back up TANK in case of war till it is more fit to see the battle field. And the whole point of this analysis takes us to no where! India will not use the Arjuns unless they are good the army is not willing to take more of it until they are good. So it is going to the T-90?s that any STINKING nation warring India must contend with. Moreover Arjuns are India first indigenous tanks and it is not possible to produce a 100% in the first attempt. This is a process and must be continued learning the lessons in the course until we arrive at the final goal. If you want to compare a COPY with an indigenous one it just goes to show how desperate you guys are to score over INDIA. Compare a copy (al-kalidh) with a copy (T-90, well not a copy, Since it is a transfer of technology) the Pakistani copy LOSSES. So remember in case of a war (in case it happens sooner) pak will have to face T-90?s and not Arjuns. If t
 
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bhogta_iitb    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/23/2006 3:13:53 PM
I think pak have T80 tanks.So i think after made a great tank as you guys told why you need them.Dont make us fool.Weapon not only thing which make a country strong.ppls the one which make country.
 
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