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Subject: India's Arjun Tank Disaster
HeavyMetal    2/6/2005 1:56:35 AM
Pakistan?s tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan?s technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan?s effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank ?Arjun?, which is still not in production after 16 years of ?tinkering? and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan?s Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service.

India has a large manufacturing base with 39 ordnance factories employing over 550,000 workers and producing a variety of military equipment, arms and ammunition for the three services. Some of these factories she inherited at the time of independence in 1947 and others she built later with much foreign assistance from the former Soviet Union and the western democracies. India?s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is large as well including ground, air and sea components with a manpower strength of around 40,000 scientists and unlimited financial backing. Over and above these India has eight defence PSUs (public sector units). All these account for around Rs 15,000 crore of the annual defence consumption

According to the Journal of Military Ordnance: ?After the 1971 war with Pakistan, senior Indian Officers decided that the Army needed more powerful and reliable tanks, ones that were especially suited to the harsh desert conditions on the northwestern frontier that borders on Pakistan. These conclusions led to the initiation of the MBT-80 (later Arjun) tank project in 1974.? The Army?s requirement or what is known in military jargon as the GSQR (General Staff Qualitative Requirement) in other words the official statement of the users requirement called for the development of a main battle tank weighing 52 tons or less. The Army wanted a tank capable of operating in the extremely hot, dry and sandy conditions found in Rajasthan along the Pakistan border. It wanted a more powerful 120-mm rifled main gun and also state-of-the art, meaning enhanced protection and mobility.

The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army?s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even ?freeze? the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the ?Chetek? was produced and displayed on India?s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named ?Arjun?. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994.

The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was ?frozen? for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army?s ?diluted? requirements. Despite the Army?s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a ?fait accompli? and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results.

The results of the 1997 field trials were so bad that they prompted India?s Comptroller and Auditor General to issue a scathing report in mid-1998 about the serious design flaws in the tank and to complain about a 20-fold increase in development costs. This did not deter the Ministry of Defence from placing an order for another 124 Arjun tanks in 1999. Politics and other considerations, it seems, were taking precedence over the Army?s operational requirements. This was being done while India was negotiating for the purchase of Russian T-90S tanks, which were later to be produced under licence in India. Some confusion was consequently apparent at the government decision making level in India.

The Indian Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, which is the overall contractor of the Tank project has built 32 Arjun tanks so far. Of these, 12 are prototypes, 15 pre-series production tanks, two are torsion bar tanks, one test vehicle, one recovery vehicle and one Mark II model. Each vehicle differs from the others in some way. The 15 pre-series tank Models are the ones designed for series production as the Arjun Mark I tanks. The original requirement of the Army demanded a tank designed to provide state-of-the art and updated mobility, protection and firepower. The designers claimed that the Arjun Mark was at par with the most modern American Abrams MIAI tank. But the final product fell far short of the tall claims to the detriment of the Army?s operational capabilities.

The weight of the Arjun Mark I tank has reached 58.5 tons. It was 6.5 tons above the maximum weight contained in General Staff Qualitative Requirements and as much as 18.5 tons over the Army?s desired requirement. Final weight of the tank could exceed 60 tons, when explosive reactive armour is added, as is expected. Excessive weight is one of the drawbacks of the Arjun tank. It will be too heavy to cross many of Inida?s bridges and be able to operate only on national highways. It cannot be lifted by standard Army tank transporters now in use and is also incompatible with present bridge-laying equipment. The Arjun tank is also too wide to use the existing transporters used by the T-72MI tanks. The Indian Army had, therefore, to invest $3.9 million to develop three rail cars to carry the new tank. The railways has classified the new tank as an ?over-dimensional consignment? requiring an increase of 150 per cent over normal transportation rates.

After major problems with the Indian engine the Arjun tank is now equipped with an imported German 1,400 HP diesel engine. This gives the tank a maximum speed of 70 km per hour on highways and 40 km per hour off-road. It has a cruising range of 200 to 250 km on its 1,610 litres of fuel. Pakistan?s Al-Khalid tank on the other hand has a cruising range of 400 km. The German MTU 838 engine and the transmission have given several problems. To start with the new engine and its associated transmission were too large for the original engine compartment which had to be modified. Field trials demonstrated that the engine lost 20 to 25 per cent of its power while operating in desert temperatures of 45 to 50 degrees Celsius. This was well above the 10 per cent that the Army expected as normal.

A report by India?s Comptroller and Auditor General noted six premature transmission failures and frequent overheating of transmission fluid during trials in the summer of 1997 because the imported transmission assembly had been overloaded. The excessive loss of engine power was attributed mainly to the cooling unit, which failed to function adequately during prolonged use. As reported by some Army officers the cooling unit experienced sharply rising temperatures during full throttle runs and made excessive demands on the electric system because there was no auxiliary power unit to handle peak demand. A worse problem was the sand blasting effect in the desert, which caused leakage of the coolant and damaged the cooling fan blades. Field trials showed that life of cooling fan blades was only 600 km instead of the declared 4,000 km. Designers tried to rectify the flaws by installing an improved cooling unit on the rear deck. The unit is so bulky that the main gun can no longer fire at zero degrees elevation over the rear pack.

The Arjun tank uses a hydro-pneumatic suspension system, which has been giving problems. This system required recharging every 300 km in desert and semi-desert conditions. On soft ground it required recharging every 250 km. In the desert heat and dust sealing of fluids and gas malfunctioned causing leakage and requiring more frequent maintenance. Inherent design flaws in the hydro-pneumatic suspension were aggravated by the increase in the tank?s weight, which was above the maximum specified by the Army. Owing to these problems two prototype tanks were equipped with torsion bars as an alternative.

There are problems with the tank?s bogie wheels as well. These have to be changed every 600 to 1,000 km. Failure rate of the bogie wheels is due to poor quality material, early disintegration of rubber parts and poor bonding of rubber with steel. Aside from the technical failures the induction of the tank in the Army would be costly. India?s Comptroller and Auditor General reported in 1998 that any regiment equipped with 45 Arjun tanks would require 16 additional three-ton lorries and 45 extra men to maintain operational mobility. The fire control system of the tank has performed poorly in field trials. Army officers are concerned that the tank?s armour cannot defeat Pakistan?s Baktar Shikan ATGM (anti-tank guided missile), therefore, explosive reactive armour may have to be added, thereby, increasing the weight still further.

In view of the constant problems with the manufacture of the Arjun tank the US journal of Military Ordnance writers: ?It is tempting to describe the Arjun as a failure because of the numerous problems it has experienced and its many technological shortfalls. This judgement especially tempting since Pakistan?s Al Khalid tank entered series production last year.? The journal goes on to say, that such an assessment is too harsh and fails to appreciate the challenges faced by Indian designers. Indian experts are satisfied with the experience gained and the ?understanding that results from 23 years of tinkering.?

The Hindustan Times of India in its issue of August 13, 1999 comments on the success of Pakistan?s Al Khalid tank and compares it with the Indian Arjun tank which at 50 degrees Celsius can ?travel only at a snail?s pace and is a sitting duck.? The paper goes on to describe the problems with the engine that has ?forced other compromises that gravely impair the Arjun?s offensive capability and increases its vulnerability. Not surprisingly, the Indian army has flatly refused to induct the Arjun into the armoured corps in more than token numbers and is insisting on the purchase of the T-90.? The paper sums up by saying: ?After 16 years of ?research? the DRDO (defence research and development organization) has produced a lemon.?

Writing in the Frontline, Chennai on March 16, 2001, John Cherian is of the opinion that it is no secret that the Indian Army?s top brass is not very enthused with the capabilities of the Arjun tank. There have been complaints about its engine and fire control systems, which adversely affect its operational mobility. The public accounts committee (PAC) had reported that the project ?fell short of even bottom line parameters? and its schedule for commercial production had overshot the deadline by more than 16 years. With the induction of the T-90s from Russia the scaling down of the Arjun project seems to have begun in right earnest, concludes John Cherian.

This short review of tank production in India is an effort to explain the difficulties faced by developing countries in the manufacture of heavy armaments. Pakistan has to a great extent overcome these problems in key areas of defence production, which may not have been appreciated by the people. Pakistan should be proud of its achievements in trying to reach a stage of self-sufficiency in armaments production so vital for the defence of the country.
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 2:56:20 AM
Pakistan may indeed have copied, reverse engineered, etc, etc But every established defense expert has cited the Pakistan's Al Khalid Tank as a top quality Tank where as they have been very critical of the Indian Arjun Tank. Look its ok to be patriotic, but when you dwell into virtuall stupidity and moronic posting to justify your arguments, you lose respect and credibility as a poster. So please refrain from such postings, and debate on factual basis.
 
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trustedsourceofinfo    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 3:14:21 AM
It depends you're looking at it from which perspective.The Al Kalid will be pitted against the T-90 in a battlefield.But if you talk abt ingenuity and indigenous development then as 'jawan' suggested we've moved onto the Arjin MK II..And this is usually the normal process when you try and develop a product in your own units.
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 4:41:11 AM
You may have moved on to the development of Arjun II But how long do you think that Tank will be battle worthy ? It took almost 30 years before the Indian Army finally gave up on Arjun I. Arjun II may result in much more improvement due to lessons learned but I seriously doubt that Arjun II can be inducted in the Indian Army any time soon. And you are right, the T-90 Russian Tanks out class the Pakistan's Al-Khalid Tank. But Pakistan has also learned its lessons from the 1971 as many of their Generals have stated. Pakistan aims to fight a defensive war and then launching a limited offensive before a UN or USA introduced cease fire. In a defensive war, Arjun Tanks with thier massive weight and failing under intense heat could be subject to intense anti-tank fire from Pakistani Soldiers. I highly doubt that Pakistan will pit its tanks against your T-90 Tank in a major Tank Battle. But rather, the Pakistani Armor will be kept in reserve, and once the Indian offensive has pettered out, then Pakistan will launch a limited offensive on its own and given the fact that the Al-Khalid is lighter, more mobile, it can achieve great speed and cover large number of distances.
 
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Jawan    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 6:46:23 AM
<>>> Paki Defense Experts don?t count much Mister, AL Khalid is crappy third class tank. IT is COPIED and it has no survivability with ARJUN MK II. Quality and PAKISTAN don?t go together. STEALING technology, reverse engineering as u seem to agree is the Pakistan way of development. Arjun might have taken 30 years to develop, but the invaluable things learned over its development process with come very handy in developing Arjun Mk II and probably III too. Also Tank-Ex which would be an advanced lighter tank which India is currently developing will be way ahead of whatever the Pak Armored corps will have. STUPIDITY and MORONIC postings are your Trait. Get some education, Madrasas don?t tell u much about the rest of the world. Ignorance does not prove ur fancy theories. Pakistan can never NEVER come close to acheving or being par with INDIA. AL KHALID LOL, frigging third class tank A COPY OF A COPY. First MAKE a COPY of tank urself, I guess that would be too difficult without the Chinese!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 8:25:40 AM
lolz, people in grade school have stopped saying such nonsense gibberish debate with facts and not fiction its ok to be patriotic but when you go on a level of utter stupidity you lose credibility faster than the Iraqi Information Minister in 2003
 
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Jawan    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT   1/9/2006 11:25:58 AM
May be u need to examine ur BRAINS!!, but I seriously doubt u have ANY. Facts !! read a whole lotta previous posts, I dont like repeating myself. Make an effort, get some knowledge. DO not blabber around too much!! May be madarsa talk i guess.
 
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Jawan    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT=DEBATE with Marshall   1/9/2006 11:28:18 AM
Nothing much to debate with you. U dont know anything about anything. Guess u dont know much about Pakistan. I certainly know that u do not know anything about INDIA or for that Matter CHINA!!!! There is nothing to debate with you!! go right head and post as much as gibberish u want too. Facts dont mean much to u, anyways!!! Will respond to any of ur any intelligent posts which make sense!! not gibberish
 
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Field-Marshall    RE:India's Arjun Tank DEVELOPMENT=DEBATE with Marshall   1/9/2006 8:13:04 PM
you just proved my point
 
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counterstrike    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster-field-MARSHALL   1/10/2006 7:08:44 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>You may have moved on to the development of Arjun II But how long do you think that Tank will be battle worthy ? It took almost 30 years before the Indian Army finally gave up on Arjun I. Arjun II may result in much more improvement due to lessons learned but I seriously doubt that Arjun II can be inducted in the Indian Army any time soon. << You don?t get the whole idea, do you? India is now importing T-90?s with transfer of technology which allows it to be manufactured in India. So you are wrong in saying that Pakistan is able to manufacture a better tank. It is India which is doing a better job. And it is not about whether it will be battle worthy when it is developed, but it is all about developing a indigenous tank. If you ask The question how long will INDIA continue to import tanks? Today INDIA has the T-90s and INDIA is producing it. But somewhere INDIA has to stop. After the T-90 is INDIA going to import the T-100, the T-200 or the T-300? No, That?s when this experience will help. When Israel first produced the Merkava MBT, Ariel Sharon (presently Prime Minister of Israel) was the DG Combat Vehicles. He walked up to the team and asked them what was the problem. After the team explained the problems, he said that this particular tank would be called Mark I and that they would produce it despite all the problems. The Mark I would be given to the troops and work would start on the Mark II, which would be better than this one. That is how the Israelis did it. And this how India will do it! Not like a bunch of copycats who are better of calling a XEROX as a original copy. IT WILL HIT THEM IN THE LONG RUN. Somewhere INDIA has to start producing. Somewhere INDIA need to have the capacity within themselves to be able to do that and then improve that equipment. Presently this is just not happening as planned but will happen. >>And you are right, the T-90 Russian Tanks out class the Pakistan's Al-Khalid Tank.<< That finishes the business. >>But Pakistan has also learned its lessons from the 1971 as many of their Generals have stated.<< well, Better Said than done! >>Pakistan aims to fight a defensive war and then launching a limited offensive before a UN or USA introduced cease fire. In a defensive war, Arjun Tanks with thier massive weight and failing under intense heat could be subject to intense anti-tank fire from Pakistani Soldiers.<< LOL? what are you up to??? Mixing 1971 with 2006-******? In 1971 india were on the offensive because they had to liberate Dhaka before the so called cease fire comes into place. But now India has no reason to be on the offensive never has India been on the offensive in the history of indo-pak wars except for 1971 if we could dismiss the preemptive air strike on India by pak as an act of desperation. For the war to start it must be done by Pakistan. So they must be on the offensive and not India. Wrong calculations! Mr. FIELD MARSHALL! >>I highly doubt that Pakistan will pit its tanks against your T-90 Tank in a major Tank Battle.<< well IN THAT CASE Pakistan can never use the tanks. Because the current number of Arjun tanks in operation are very few and they wont be produced in great numbers unless the field problems are solved hence it is highly unlikely they will see the battle field in its current inept state and hence Pakistan has to face the T-90?s or just forget using their tanks. >>But rather, the Pakistani Armor will be kept in reserve, and once the Indian offensive has pettered out, then Pakistan will launch a limited offensive on its own and given the fact that the Al-Khalid is lighter, more mobile, it can achieve great speed and cover large number of distances.<< As I said if they are going to wait for the Arjuns to come to fight them then they will have to wait until they are completely run over! India will be better off with T-90?s, they have that in more numbers than Arjun which may not see the light soon. India MAY use the arjuns rather as an back up TANK in case of war till it is more fit to see the battle field. And the whole point of this analysis takes us to no where! India will not use the Arjuns unless they are good the army is not willing to take more of it until they are good. So it is going to the T-90?s that any STINKING nation warring India must contend with. Moreover Arjuns are India first indigenous tanks and it is not possible to produce a 100% in the first attempt. This is a process and must be continued learning the lessons in the course until we arrive at the final goal. If you want to compare a COPY with an indigenous one it just goes to show how desperate you guys are to score over INDIA. Compare a copy (al-kalidh) with a copy (T-90, well not a copy, Since it is a transfer of technology) the Pakistani copy LOSSES. So remember in case of a war (in case it happens sooner) pak will have to face T-90?s and not Arjuns. If they dream about that then tell those DUMBAS generals to forget about a Armored thrust!
 
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bhogta_iitb    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/23/2006 3:13:53 PM
I think pak have T80 tanks.So i think after made a great tank as you guys told why you need them.Dont make us fool.Weapon not only thing which make a country strong.ppls the one which make country.
 
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mithradates    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/26/2006 12:11:04 AM
Ok, I think I'll put my bias aside for a moment and consider the Arjun critically. As I see it ANY tank project has 2 major stumbling blocks: 1. Design experience The ppl designing the tank needs to have a good idea of what they are doing. But to actually get that kind of competance requires a bit of failures. Just think about the design of the old American Sherman tanks versus the current M1A, it takes a great deal of time and experience to be able to design a world-class tank. It took decades and much learning from the German and Russian designs for American tank designers to progress from armored farm tractors to the M1A2. From the Chinese perspective, the T-98 is a world class design LARGELY because of the lessons learnt from the failures of the T-90 program. So if the Arjun is India's first indigenous Tank Design, I would expect it to be largely a failure simply because nobody gets it right the first time. From Pakistan's point of view, their Al-Khalid is a modified Chinese T-90 design with the major bugs worked out. The design problem simply is not encountered for them, but it also means that Pakistan would not be able to design a world-class tank anytime soon. But considering that Pakistan is not(and has no intentions of being) a major Eurasian Land power, I don't think they would need to do that. 2. Production Capability This is something that could potentially be more problematic than problem 1. Yes, China can provide Pakistan with the Al-Khalid design. Yes, Russia can provide India with the T-90 design. But neither Pakistan or India is actually BUILDING either tank. The Al-Khalid design is technologically much simpler than the T-90, thus the Pakistanis can build the chasis and other basic modules. But the critical parts of the tank(powerplant, Weapons suite, Armor modules, FCS) must all be imported from 3rd countries and them ASSEMBLED onto the tank in Pakistan. In the case of India, the T-90 is simply too technologically complex for the immature Indian military industrial complex to mass produce in any respect. They are not making the Chasis or anyother basic module, the Russians are simply sending them entire kits at this time, and they are piecing the kits together. The only way that both India and Pakistan can overcome problem number 2 is by SIGNIFICANTLY increase the technology level of their own domestic heavy industries, which is not really happing to any extent at this point.
 
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musloko-maro    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/26/2006 10:08:55 AM
Pakistan?s tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan?s technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan?s effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank ?Arjun?, which is still not in production after 16 years of ?tinkering? and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan?s Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service........ Absolutely no basis. Jane's defence's weekly, one of the most reliable and trusted info sources, has lambasted Pak's "manufacturing ability" and it's "success". Pak lacks the scientific and technical infrastructure. They have no originality of any kind, and have been relying on borrowed/handed down knowhow. Let me obtain permsission from the editor to post the details in toto. Pak is a dictator state that has a better advantage over a democratic India, in getting deals done on clandestince basis. Pak has very accountability inlike India. India's Public Accounts Committe and the Comtproller and Auditor General acts as fiscal watchddog, where as in Pak, such functions have been muzzled, since Sept 1947, at the behest of the then Gov General Quid-e-Hajaam Jinnah! [My sincere apologies to all barbers of India]
 
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yakeepi    Impressive   2/28/2006 9:19:09 PM
I think Arjun's failure is due to a bit over-ambitious, which is quite normal. US, Europe and Russia may sell weapons, even license production, but they wouldn't tranfer technology easily. And to gain real know-how, you have to start from scratch. China did samething in 70s, even worse, developed dozen of junks and none of them went to production. But Al-Khalid is not just a simply copy Chinese tank as well. Chinese tank by design, doesn't take sub-continent terrain into consideration, also thermal-management is a problem. Plus you have to adapt it to Pak's manufacture environment, not a easy task. It's pretty impressive that Pak can make these tank and sell them. Think about Saudi, they can buy M1A1 no problem. Even Saudi's consideration of buying Pak's tank, indicates Al-Khalid does have some edge there. Maybe Pak's tank tech is from China, but it certainly looks different from western style of license production, which you can't modify and re-sell them, this is the real tech transfer. And regardless where it is from, you master it and the skill is yours, just like reading a textbook. The licensed production has a problem, they won't tell you WHY and HOW. But Pak-China relationship seems much more like the Isreal-US model, Pak is even in a better position than Isreal. US won't let Isreal produce F16 and re-sell them, but Pak can do that. It's really surprising that Pak could sell Chinese nuke design and China didn't give a damn of it. That gives Pak some edge since India is still a few steps behind China and Pak can access a lot of Chinese technology/facilities freely. Just like Isreal, Pak may not have the infrastructure, but you can't underestimate their capability. link pit I just saw JF-17's avonics and surprised to find it's quite advanced. JF-17 is totally funded by Pak and their engineers got involed in every cycle of development. This is unique in the world, just imagine UK funds F16 program and got involved whole cycle of its development/production, what can they learn or are they allowed to do that? Chengdu even setup a avonics lab just for JF-17, and Pak's engineers might well be there from day one.
 
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The Difender    India's Arjun Tank Disaster   3/23/2007 4:46:35 PM
 

I am not an Indian or Pakistani. I am Latin (South American) I love to travel and I have travel to India, Pakistan as well as South America, Europe and Middle East. And with my travel experience, I can comfortably say Pakistan is much cleaner, develop over all better country, friendly and civilized people compare to India, most south American, and some European and Middle eastern countries. Not to mentioned, I have also stayed south Asian and middle eastern countries.

It would be wrong to compare India and Pakistan. India’s population is over 1.2 billion compare to Pakistan 147 million. India is atleast six times bigger then Pakistan. When British left India in 1947 they left all the resources to India and to Pakistan all they got mountains and desserts and they built they’re country from the ground up with out much help and resources from the west on the other hand India got all the help they need from USSR, Europe and USA. When India and Israel tested they’re nuclear devices everyone stays quiet as soon as Pakistan tested they’re nuclear test for defense purpose the whole west got on to Pakistan case and impose sanctions. Recently, when both countries were on brink of war and India is the one who wanted to start that war in 2002 again the west was on Pakistan case. Pakistan always gets treated unfairly and they’re still doing well and for all the achievements Pakistan should be one proud nation. There are three different category we can categories a country or describe a country Develop, Developing and underdeveloped. And Pakistan is a Developing country certainly not underdeveloped (third world country) and here is a link to see it your self “ link

India and Pakistan have fought three wars and Pakistan still stand. India got all the help from west especially from USSR and USA and where Pakistan has to fight with weapons that weren’t as advanced. And even today the west is offering all kind of help to India either is IT technology, space technology or Nuclear technology on the other hand Pakistan is helping west and bending back ward and they’re not getting much help from the west specially from USA. What Pakistan is getting compare to India it peanuts.

Democracy means freedom of speech and freedom for people which I did not see in India. In India, if you are rich and powerful you are above the law and you can do what ever you want on the other hand I noticed things much different in Pakistan. There is a law people follow and there is a free media, freedom of speech either you are Muslim, Hindu or Christian. And India is lacking on these things big time. Comparing educational and political background from both countries leaders Pakistan wins it again.

I can go on and write a book but I better stop now and I hope it helped some of you commentator.

 
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blitZ       3/23/2007 10:59:26 PM
The defender, i am not going to reward your ignorance and illiteracy with a response. You are welcome to hold on to any notions that help you sleep better at night. Have fun.
 
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