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Subject: India's Arjun Tank Disaster
HeavyMetal    2/6/2005 1:56:35 AM
Pakistan?s tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan?s technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan?s effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank ?Arjun?, which is still not in production after 16 years of ?tinkering? and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan?s Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service. India has a large manufacturing base with 39 ordnance factories employing over 550,000 workers and producing a variety of military equipment, arms and ammunition for the three services. Some of these factories she inherited at the time of independence in 1947 and others she built later with much foreign assistance from the former Soviet Union and the western democracies. India?s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is large as well including ground, air and sea components with a manpower strength of around 40,000 scientists and unlimited financial backing. Over and above these India has eight defence PSUs (public sector units). All these account for around Rs 15,000 crore of the annual defence consumption According to the Journal of Military Ordnance: ?After the 1971 war with Pakistan, senior Indian Officers decided that the Army needed more powerful and reliable tanks, ones that were especially suited to the harsh desert conditions on the northwestern frontier that borders on Pakistan. These conclusions led to the initiation of the MBT-80 (later Arjun) tank project in 1974.? The Army?s requirement or what is known in military jargon as the GSQR (General Staff Qualitative Requirement) in other words the official statement of the users requirement called for the development of a main battle tank weighing 52 tons or less. The Army wanted a tank capable of operating in the extremely hot, dry and sandy conditions found in Rajasthan along the Pakistan border. It wanted a more powerful 120-mm rifled main gun and also state-of-the art, meaning enhanced protection and mobility. The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army?s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even ?freeze? the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the ?Chetek? was produced and displayed on India?s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named ?Arjun?. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994. The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was ?frozen? for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army?s ?diluted? requirements. Despite the Army?s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a ?fait accompli? and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results. The results of the 1997 field trials were so bad that they prompted India?s Comptroller and Auditor General to issue a scathing report in mid-1998 about the serious design flaws in the tank and to complain about a 20-fold increase in development costs. This did not deter the Ministry of Defence from placing an order for another 124 Arjun tanks in 1999. Politics and other considerations, it seems, were taking precedence over the Army?s operational requirements. This was being done while India was negotiating for the purchase of Russian T-90S tanks, which were later to be produced under licence in India. Some confusion was consequently apparent at the g
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:Pakistan will be leading arms supplier to the Saudi Arabia   2/6/2005 9:19:03 PM
Yes we are. Thanks for pointing that out K2. India's disastarous attempt to make indeginous weapons utterly and totally failed. We are making tanks, planes and many other items. many countries have expressed interest. name me 1 country which buys weapons from india?
 
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Stanislav    RE:Pakistan will be leading arms supplier to the Saudi Arabia   2/6/2005 9:40:13 PM
Pakistan is an impoverished and backward 3rd world country with barely enough resources to feed and clothe themselves. I am against such nations engaging in weapons development, not least because they should be focusing their attentions on more pressing matters like their starving populace. Great nations take care of basic things first.
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:Pakistan will be leading arms supplier to the Saudi Arabia   2/7/2005 3:30:58 AM
stanislav, you have absolutley zero knowledge on pakistan-india matters. if we didn't have nukes, india would be invading us. our nukes is a deterrent, just like israeli nukes and just like the MAD (mutually assured destruction between USSR and USA). you sound eastern european, go learn some history before you make comments on such matters.
 
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PeregrinePike    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster - Porche Engines?   2/10/2005 3:17:12 PM
I saw one back a few years ago and it seemed ok to me... that is my book-wise not battle-read eyes. And the developers were themselves first admit its short-commings with regard to engines. That seems to be a problem with all tanks now-a-days, so frankly I suggest sitting tight till new designs come out. Porche is promissing a new fuel efficient and yet powerful engine with electic backup (sort of like a 70-ton Prius, but I really dont know when it starts off). Electric-backup in desert means a longer range and more liveable conditions. It might be revolutionary or it mught be a spectacular dud... just have to allow others to test before we buy. ;-) PS: Supposedly an ego-battle between two generals lead to buying the new T-72's, which is not at all surprising... but T-72's are supposedly more dangerous to us than Arjuns b/c of their auto-loading which loads arms and legs too ;-)
 
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GautKaps    RE:Pakistan will be leading arms supplier to the Saudi Arabia   2/10/2005 3:35:49 PM
Stanislav makes an interesting comment. 3 out of four 4 wars have been initiated by you and yet u say that India will invade Pakistan...We have made it clear that no boundaries will be redrawn.... If we invade Pakistan the world will come after us..... Can we do that...NO... Again-ridiculous arguments! Stan is right-Pakistan is an impoverished nation and rather than supporting proxy wars and terrorism spend it wisely...
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:Pakistan will be leading arms supplier to the Saudi Arabia   3/13/2005 5:40:31 PM
Pakistan niehter engages in terrorist activies nor has supported terrorist groups. We support freedom fighter groups and give military and moral support to our kashmiri brothers fighting the brutal indian army. That was like American General Stilwell giving weapons to Chinese to fight the Japanese occupation of China or British Military giving weapons to Free French or Yugoslavia Partisan brigages. Face it, in historical context, all indian arguments against pakistan fail. India doesn't even have a moral leg to stand on.
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   3/13/2005 8:04:14 PM
india is incapable of making its own weapons
 
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GautKaps    RE:   3/13/2005 8:10:21 PM
I quite agree with you that Pakistan is neither supporting terrorism nor does is engage in it. Any reason since you're an American citizen and might know bettter-Why has Pakistan been put on the suspect list of 23 nations supporting terror. I find it ridiculous that the citizens of Pakistan are subject to humiliation at airports or asked to register every year with the INS inspite of Pakistan being such an important ally in this war against terror... What say you Heavy Metal....
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:   3/14/2005 2:34:26 AM
Pakistan has been put on that list, due to indian propoganda. but we are soon defeating that ridicilous claims and flushing out these terrorits from our country. i have travelled many times to pakistan and back and I have never seen anything like strip searches for pakistani travellers. i think that is your crazy and stupid propoganda machine otherwise known as Zee Tv at work. and besides wasn't it your defense minister who got strip searched or the majority of people who got beaten up after 9/11 were indians. i guess you indians look more like terrorists than we do. lolz. and the registration process, is understandable. what is even more funny is the fact that india and indians are butt of everyone's jokes in this country. come to usa and you will see what low regard that people of this country have of you. i guess to indians like you, American opinion is all that matters.
 
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blitZ    RE:   3/14/2005 4:14:10 AM
Wow, HeavyMetal, man you left me speechless with your amazing oratory skills and your flawless logic. i am CLEAN BOWLED !! i can only HOPE this is how all the "educated' pakistanis think. no wonder pakistan is at the height of glory as it is and may it continue to be there. [if you know what i mean, hehe ]
 
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