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Subject: India's Arjun Tank Disaster
HeavyMetal    2/6/2005 1:56:35 AM
Pakistan?s tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan?s technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan?s effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank ?Arjun?, which is still not in production after 16 years of ?tinkering? and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan?s Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service. India has a large manufacturing base with 39 ordnance factories employing over 550,000 workers and producing a variety of military equipment, arms and ammunition for the three services. Some of these factories she inherited at the time of independence in 1947 and others she built later with much foreign assistance from the former Soviet Union and the western democracies. India?s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is large as well including ground, air and sea components with a manpower strength of around 40,000 scientists and unlimited financial backing. Over and above these India has eight defence PSUs (public sector units). All these account for around Rs 15,000 crore of the annual defence consumption According to the Journal of Military Ordnance: ?After the 1971 war with Pakistan, senior Indian Officers decided that the Army needed more powerful and reliable tanks, ones that were especially suited to the harsh desert conditions on the northwestern frontier that borders on Pakistan. These conclusions led to the initiation of the MBT-80 (later Arjun) tank project in 1974.? The Army?s requirement or what is known in military jargon as the GSQR (General Staff Qualitative Requirement) in other words the official statement of the users requirement called for the development of a main battle tank weighing 52 tons or less. The Army wanted a tank capable of operating in the extremely hot, dry and sandy conditions found in Rajasthan along the Pakistan border. It wanted a more powerful 120-mm rifled main gun and also state-of-the art, meaning enhanced protection and mobility. The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army?s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even ?freeze? the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the ?Chetek? was produced and displayed on India?s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named ?Arjun?. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994. The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was ?frozen? for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army?s ?diluted? requirements. Despite the Army?s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a ?fait accompli? and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results. The results of the 1997 field trials were so bad that they prompted India?s Comptroller and Auditor General to issue a scathing report in mid-1998 about the serious design flaws in the tank and to complain about a 20-fold increase in development costs. This did not deter the Ministry of Defence from placing an order for another 124 Arjun tanks in 1999. Politics and other considerations, it seems, were taking precedence over the Army?s operational requirements. This was being done while India was negotiating for the purchase of Russian T-90S tanks, which were later to be produced under licence in India. Some confusion was consequently apparent at the g
 
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K2    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/6/2005 3:22:07 AM
India is now doing right job?Buy weapons rather then indigenous flop ;-)
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/6/2005 3:26:15 AM
lolz, true that. After the utter and disastarous failure of its indeginous weapons because its designers, testers, and engineers were too incompetent to come up with anything good. india started buying weapons. what a shame. the 2nd largest country in the world (1,000,000,000) buys weapons from a country with a population of 4 million (Israel). lolz, what a joke.
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/6/2005 3:47:18 AM
Atlast, the truth finally came out. Russia and many other countries who fly the Migs which Indian Pilots call the flying coffins have said that its not the bad designs of the Migs which they are crashing its because of the pilot errors. India's Pilots cannot in no shape or form compete with Pakistan's pilots who have been ranked among the best trained pilots in the world. So despite all the latest Fighters that India acquires, if it simply has unskilled pilots flying them then no matter even if you have the F-22 Raptor you still would get shot down. India lost a couple of planes in its failed and disastarous Kargil War of 1999 against the Freedom Fighters. India ashamed that a bunch of rag-tag freedom fighters shot down its planes placed the blame on the planes. Now that an independent inquiry launched by some other countries including Russia has concluded that planes crash because of bad safety and maintenance practices committed by the Indian Ground Crews and the unskilled Indian Pilots. People happily seek replacing the 300-odd aircraft in service. This would cost the country upwards of Rs 500,000 crore at an average per unit cost of $40 million ? that is, nearly eight-times the annual defence budget, while demanding, as Amartya Sen has, a cut in current levels of defence spending! So India's rouse has been detected. There is so much corruption in the Indian Army that so much finds are being syphoned off from other sectors to fill the pockets of civilian contractors. Absolutely Zero Accountability. WOW. what a democracy. Look at the Bahramos Artillery, Flying Coffins, Arjun Tank. Its a miracle that the Indian Army hasn't imploded with wars on both its eastern (Pakistan and Occupied Kashmir) and western (Assam).
 
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K2    RE:HeavyMetal   2/6/2005 3:51:03 AM
Pakistan has started design and research work on the AL-Khalid-2. I think it include western design turret and improve modular armor suite. What do you think?
 
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HeavyMetal    RE:HeavyMetal   2/6/2005 4:33:02 AM
nice nice nice. I have heard something about it. The Al-Khalid is an excellent design, and the beauty of the Al-Khalid design that it is very easily upgradable. Like the american m1a1, or the israeli merkava tank, our al-khalid tank is among the best in the world. I also think they should mount some anti-aircraft missiles onto these tanks, like the Javelin anti-tank missile. only a few tanks have that capibility, and adding these kinds of mods will make an excellent tank. already many countries are lining up to buy our tank. I heard that Saudi Arabia wants to buy 500, Egypt wants 300 and Iran wants around 500.
 
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K2    RE:HeavyMetal   2/6/2005 4:48:30 AM
>>I heard that Saudi Arabia wants to buy 500, Egypt wants 300 and Iran wants around 500<< I think these are speculation. Only Saudi Arabia actively considering 100 Al-khalid and several hundred Sadd APC as Pakistan deploy an armored regiment there by the end of this year.
 
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HeavyMetal    k2   2/6/2005 2:56:22 PM
why is pakistan deploying armored forces in saudi arabia? i also know the ssg commandos have a base in saudi arabia u know y?
 
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Stanislav    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/6/2005 6:00:03 PM
// the 2nd largest country in the world (1,000,000,000) buys weapons from a country with a population of 4 million (Israel). lolz, what a joke. // your statement is not only logically flawed, it is stupid. so what if india cooperates with and purchases certain weapons from israel? israel is a leader in weapons manufacturing and development, shares with india a common menace in nutball muslim crazies, and enjoys good relations with secular and progressive india. oh, and that country of "4 million" could melt pakistan into plastic. as soon as the need fr pakistan's "cooperation" is done, so too will pakistan (in its current form) be done. it is a democracy vacuum that is too dangerous to let fester and spread.
 
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GautKaps    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/6/2005 7:10:05 PM
K2 and Heavy Metal have been goading each other on inspired from the epic by Ernest hemingway "Brothers in Arms"... We atleast have the capability to try stuff indigenously.We prepare prototypes and surely some work and some fail....There is en element of hit and trial...But I dont think you'll understand this cos your Nucleur guru AQ Khan stole nucluer tech from a lab in Netherlands...Your missiles are imported from North Korea and China provides te rest...We're at least trying and its also a matter of time before we have a mission to the moon...2008 according to ISRO... Agni too was prototyped and had flaws and you build on from there...this is a normal cycle.... We at least have the capability....Look at you...the man you admire most AQ Khan is a thief and now he's even a proliferator and called more dangerous than OBL....The embarrassment he had to face ...the pride of Pakistan...huh We have sent our own satellites for quite some time...We did not focus on arms for a long time and now we're doing that....Since we're applying ourselves to it its only matter of time with the talent pool India possesses....Once the NMD is also in place and integrated across well-what do you think is gonna happen...you'll be wiped out if u try anythin cheeky...and Stanislav is right...Israel,US and India will do it.......your nucleur button is now in the hands of the US anyways.... You're doomed.....and so are the rest of the Pakis.... Once America is done with OBL and Mullah Omar...wait and watch.......which country wants to deal with pathetic uncivilised people as you...
 
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K2    RE:Pakistan will be leading arms supplier to the Saudi Arabia   2/6/2005 9:11:21 PM
Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are implementing a $1.2 billion defense and military cooperation agreement that paves the way for the sale of aircraft, tanks, armored vehicles and submarines to the Arab kingdom. Industry sources said the defense cooperation agreement envisioned Pakistani military sales to Saudi Arabia over the next decade. The agreement would turn Islamabad into a leading military supplier to Saudi Arabia, expand Riyad's defense industry and deploy a Pakistani brigade in the kingdom. The first deal executed under $34 million sale of 20 Super Mashak air trainers to the Saudi Air Force. The first delivery of eight Super Mashak trainers has taken place. The rest of the aircraft are to be delivered by the end of this year. The second stage of the defense and military cooperation accord is expected to begin in this year, In mid-2005, the Saudi Army is scheduled to hold field trials of Pakistan's Al Khalid main battle tank. The Saudi Army attended a field trial in Pakistan in mid-2004 and agreed to procure at least one Al Khalid for the trials in the kingdom. Saudi military was considering the purchase of at least 100 Al Khalid tanks. The tanks would be obtained at a much better price than a French offer in 2003 for the Leclerc main battle tank. Pakistan has also offered Saudi Arabia Al Hamza armored infantry fighting vehicles. Al Hamza, based on the U.S.-origin M113, would be equipped with anti-tank missile launchers. Most of the Pakistani equipment would not be directly transferred to the Saudi military, Instead, the tanks, APCs and anti-tank missiles would be used to equip a Pakistani Army armoured brigade in Saudi Arabia. The sources said the brigade would arrive in the kingdom in late 2005 instead of US forces. The third stage of the defense accord includes an examination of Pakistani warships to Riyad. The sources said the Saudi navy has been discussing the purchase of the Agosta-90B diesel submarine.
 
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