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Subject: India's Arjun Tank Disaster
HeavyMetal    2/6/2005 1:56:35 AM
Pakistan’s tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan’s technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan’s effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank ‘Arjun’, which is still not in production after 16 years of ‘tinkering’ and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan’s Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service. India has a large manufacturing base with 39 ordnance factories employing over 550,000 workers and producing a variety of military equipment, arms and ammunition for the three services. Some of these factories she inherited at the time of independence in 1947 and others she built later with much foreign assistance from the former Soviet Union and the western democracies. India’s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is large as well including ground, air and sea components with a manpower strength of around 40,000 scientists and unlimited financial backing. Over and above these India has eight defence PSUs (public sector units). All these account for around Rs 15,000 crore of the annual defence consumption According to the Journal of Military Ordnance: “After the 1971 war with Pakistan, senior Indian Officers decided that the Army needed more powerful and reliable tanks, ones that were especially suited to the harsh desert conditions on the northwestern frontier that borders on Pakistan. These conclusions led to the initiation of the MBT-80 (later Arjun) tank project in 1974.” The Army’s requirement or what is known in military jargon as the GSQR (General Staff Qualitative Requirement) in other words the official statement of the users requirement called for the development of a main battle tank weighing 52 tons or less. The Army wanted a tank capable of operating in the extremely hot, dry and sandy conditions found in Rajasthan along the Pakistan border. It wanted a more powerful 120-mm rifled main gun and also state-of-the art, meaning enhanced protection and mobility. The first prototype of the MBT-80 tank was to be produced by 1983. This was to be followed by the production of 12 more prototypes at the rate of one tank per month. The plan was to enter serial production of the new tank by 1984. It seems the user requirements kept being modified and the Army’s Directorate General for Combat Vehicles did not even “freeze” the design until 1984. In the same year the first prototype called the “Chetek” was produced and displayed on India’s Republic Day. The following year in 1985 another prototype was produced and officially named “Arjun”. Further production slowed down forcing a major review of the entire tank programme in 1987. A year later in 1988 the first technical trials were carried out. The results were very disappointing, prompting the Army Chief to recommend the cancellation of the entire programme in 1991. The programme, however, continued with the production of more prototypes for field trials. Six were produced in 1993 and another nine in 1994. The field trials uncovered numerous design flaws, which could only be rectified by several major design changes. After making modifications to rectify the deficiencies uncovered during field trials, the much revised design profile was “frozen” for a second time in 1996. The new design still did not meet the Army’s “diluted” requirements. Despite the Army’s reluctance the Ministry of Defence allowed limited pre-series production of 14 tanks to begin with the hope of presenting the Army with a ‘fait accompli’ and obtaining its grudging acceptance of the design. 15 pre-series production models were handed over to the Army in April 1997, almost a year behind schedule. These tanks were also tested in extensive field trials, again with unsatisfactory results. The results of the 1997 field trials were so bad that they prompted India’s Comptroller and Auditor General to issue a scathing report in mid-1998 about the serious design flaws in the tank and to complain about a 20-fold increase in development costs. This did not deter the Ministry of Defence from placing an order for another 124 Arjun tanks in 1999. Politics and other considerations, it seems, were taking precedence over the Army’s operational requirements. This was being done while India was negotiating for the purchase of Russian T-90S tanks, which were later to be produced under licence in India. Some confusion was consequently apparent at the g
 
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mithradates    RE:India's Arjun Tank Disaster   2/26/2006 12:11:04 AM
Ok, I think I'll put my bias aside for a moment and consider the Arjun critically. As I see it ANY tank project has 2 major stumbling blocks: 1. Design experience The ppl designing the tank needs to have a good idea of what they are doing. But to actually get that kind of competance requires a bit of failures. Just think about the design of the old American Sherman tanks versus the current M1A, it takes a great deal of time and experience to be able to design a world-class tank. It took decades and much learning from the German and Russian designs for American tank designers to progress from armored farm tractors to the M1A2. From the Chinese perspective, the T-98 is a world class design LARGELY because of the lessons learnt from the failures of the T-90 program. So if the Arjun is India's first indigenous Tank Design, I would expect it to be largely a failure simply because nobody gets it right the first time. From Pakistan's point of view, their Al-Khalid is a modified Chinese T-90 design with the major bugs worked out. The design problem simply is not encountered for them, but it also means that Pakistan would not be able to design a world-class tank anytime soon. But considering that Pakistan is not(and has no intentions of being) a major Eurasian Land power, I don't think they would need to do that. 2. Production Capability This is something that could potentially be more problematic than problem 1. Yes, China can provide Pakistan with the Al-Khalid design. Yes, Russia can provide India with the T-90 design. But neither Pakistan or India is actually BUILDING either tank. The Al-Khalid design is technologically much simpler than the T-90, thus the Pakistanis can build the chasis and other basic modules. But the critical parts of the tank(powerplant, Weapons suite, Armor modules, FCS) must all be imported from 3rd countries and them ASSEMBLED onto the tank in Pakistan. In the case of India, the T-90 is simply too technologically complex for the immature Indian military industrial complex to mass produce in any respect. They are not making the Chasis or anyother basic module, the Russians are simply sending them entire kits at this time, and they are piecing the kits together. The only way that both India and Pakistan can overcome problem number 2 is by SIGNIFICANTLY increase the technology level of their own domestic heavy industries, which is not really happing to any extent at this point.
 
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yakeepi    Impressive   2/28/2006 9:19:09 PM
I think Arjun's failure is due to a bit over-ambitious, which is quite normal. US, Europe and Russia may sell weapons, even license production, but they wouldn't tranfer technology easily. And to gain real know-how, you have to start from scratch. China did samething in 70s, even worse, developed dozen of junks and none of them went to production. But Al-Khalid is not just a simply copy Chinese tank as well. Chinese tank by design, doesn't take sub-continent terrain into consideration, also thermal-management is a problem. Plus you have to adapt it to Pak's manufacture environment, not a easy task. It's pretty impressive that Pak can make these tank and sell them. Think about Saudi, they can buy M1A1 no problem. Even Saudi's consideration of buying Pak's tank, indicates Al-Khalid does have some edge there. Maybe Pak's tank tech is from China, but it certainly looks different from western style of license production, which you can't modify and re-sell them, this is the real tech transfer. And regardless where it is from, you master it and the skill is yours, just like reading a textbook. The licensed production has a problem, they won't tell you WHY and HOW. But Pak-China relationship seems much more like the Isreal-US model, Pak is even in a better position than Isreal. US won't let Isreal produce F16 and re-sell them, but Pak can do that. It's really surprising that Pak could sell Chinese nuke design and China didn't give a damn of it. That gives Pak some edge since India is still a few steps behind China and Pak can access a lot of Chinese technology/facilities freely. Just like Isreal, Pak may not have the infrastructure, but you can't underestimate their capability. http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=115024>JF-17's pit I just saw JF-17's avonics and surprised to find it's quite advanced. JF-17 is totally funded by Pak and their engineers got involed in every cycle of development. This is unique in the world, just imagine UK funds F16 program and got involved whole cycle of its development/production, what can they learn or are they allowed to do that? Chengdu even setup a avonics lab just for JF-17, and Pak's engineers might well be there from day one.
 
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The Difender    India's Arjun Tank Disaster   3/23/2007 4:46:35 PM
 

I am not an Indian or Pakistani. I am Latin (South American) I love to travel and I have travel to India, Pakistan as well as South America, Europe and Middle East. And with my travel experience, I can comfortably say Pakistan is much cleaner, develop over all better country, friendly and civilized people compare to India, most south American, and some European and Middle eastern countries. Not to mentioned, I have also stayed south Asian and middle eastern countries.

It would be wrong to compare India and Pakistan. India’s population is over 1.2 billion compare to Pakistan 147 million. India is atleast six times bigger then Pakistan. When British left India in 1947 they left all the resources to India and to Pakistan all they got mountains and desserts and they built they’re country from the ground up with out much help and resources from the west on the other hand India got all the help they need from USSR, Europe and USA. When India and Israel tested they’re nuclear devices everyone stays quiet as soon as Pakistan tested they’re nuclear test for defense purpose the whole west got on to Pakistan case and impose sanctions. Recently, when both countries were on brink of war and India is the one who wanted to start that war in 2002 again the west was on Pakistan case. Pakistan always gets treated unfairly and they’re still doing well and for all the achievements Pakistan should be one proud nation. There are three different category we can categories a country or describe a country Develop, Developing and underdeveloped. And Pakistan is a Developing country certainly not underdeveloped (third world country) and here is a link to see it your self “http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/multimedia-forum/12211-tall-building-architecture-pakistan.html”;

India and Pakistan have fought three wars and Pakistan still stand. India got all the help from west especially from USSR and USA and where Pakistan has to fight with weapons that weren’t as advanced. And even today the west is offering all kind of help to India either is IT technology, space technology or Nuclear technology on the other hand Pakistan is helping west and bending back ward and they’re not getting much help from the west specially from USA. What Pakistan is getting compare to India it peanuts.

Democracy means freedom of speech and freedom for people which I did not see in India. In India, if you are rich and powerful you are above the law and you can do what ever you want on the other hand I noticed things much different in Pakistan. There is a law people follow and there is a free media, freedom of speech either you are Muslim, Hindu or Christian. And India is lacking on these things big time. Comparing educational and political background from both countries leaders Pakistan wins it again.

I can go on and write a book but I better stop now and I hope it helped some

 
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blitZ       3/23/2007 10:59:26 PM
The defender, i am not going to reward your ignorance and illiteracy with a response. You are welcome to hold on to any notions that help you sleep better at night. Have fun.
 
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entre nous    to defender   3/24/2007 12:22:29 AM
looks like you learnt you english and got your education in pak. must have been a pleasant change from the carwash you work in. PUTA!!
 
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entre nous    to HEAVYMEATAL   3/24/2007 12:39:26 AM
dude, tell me where you live in the U.S.A. i'll make sure  you get all the respect you deserve. BTW  indians are the richest and the most influential minority among recent immigrants in the u.s. pakis on the other hand are largely illegal and work in pathetic conditions. and paki stores always say pak and indian store or grocery, but indian stores do not. same is the case in britian. actually jane goody referred to the indian woman as "paki". "paki" has now become a degradatory term.lol! and you are telling indians have no respect. indians are leaders in every field. to name a few..dr. sanjay gupta on cnn, aneesh raman on cnn, deepak chopra the new age guru, ash has been on oprah and david letterman, bobby jindal the senator from lousiana, and the list goes on.....name a few pakis...DO NOT INCLUDE THE ILLEGAL PAKI STORE ATTENDANTS AT 7-ELEVEN. after 9/11 americans defecated in mosques in florida, ohio and new york. thats the respect america has for you. your future is in OUR hands.
 
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MoJoe       5/23/2007 8:09:11 PM
I am not an Indian or Pakistani. I am Latin (South American)
You mean Latino, Latin is a language

 ..And with my travel experience, I can comfortably say Pakistan is much cleaner,
Source? (ie: A list of cleanliest nations)

(Better) Developed - over all better country,
Are you saying better developed?  India's GDP per Capita is ranked: 118th compared to Pakistan's 136ths India has a Economic growth rate of 9.0% whereas pakistan is 6.6% India's exports are $112 billion compared to Pakistans $17.56 billion [1]
Not to mention India has actually tried to develop their own military equipment from scratch instead of Pakistan only upgrading Chinese equipment.

Friendly and civilized people compare to India, most south American, and some European and Middle eastern countries. Not to mentioned, I have also stayed south Asian and middle eastern countries.
You're full of it,
Pakistan has a good majority of radical Islamics to the north alongside nationalists and conservative Muslims. Look at what they do to Christians and Hindus in Pakistan compared to India's treatment of Christians, Muslims, and Sikhs? Granted their have been a major instance of Sikh-Hindu violence, but that has been resolved.
 
It would be wrong to compare India and Pakistan. India’s population is over 1.2 billion compare to Pakistan 147 million. India is atleast six times bigger then Pakistan.
Compare per Capita or PP

When India and Israel tested they’re nuclear devices everyone stays quiet
USA and Canada were outraged
but France and the Soviet Union supported India's nuclear tests [2]


As soon as Pakistan tested they’re nuclear test for defense purpose the whole west got on to Pakistan case and impose sanctions.
Because Pakistan couldn't be trusted as it was the aggressor in three of the four wars between India.
It still seems a legitamit claim as they gave Nuclear secrets to North Korea

Recently, when both countries were on brink of war and India is the one who wanted to start that war in 2002 again the west was on Pakistan case.
India wanted to start the war? No,  more like Pakistan or Pakistan/Islamic nationalists in the ISI
Not to mention India sent troops to the LOC only after Pakistan put their troops in alert after Ashraf's speech[3]

India and Pakistan have fought three wars and Pakistan still stand. India got all the help from west especially from USSR and USA and where Pakistan has to fight with weapons that weren’t as advanced.
India was non-aligned at first, although a good amount supported the Soviets, Pakistan asked for support from the US. The US agreed and helped support Pakistan - THEN and ONLY THEN did India officially side and support the Soviet Union.
Remember the Patton Tanks? [4]

And even today the west is offering all kind of help to India either is IT technology, space technology or Nuclear technology on the other hand Pakistan is helping west and bending back ward and they’re not getting much help from the west specially from USA.  What Pakistan is getting compare to India it peanuts.
Because compared to India, Pakistan is sending peanuts (measuring in gross)

Democracy means freedom of speech and freedom for people which I did not see in India.
How? India has allowed Indian film-makers to publish films that were disputed
and compared to the Pre-Invasion Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, India allows more feminine depiction of women
while allowing them and giving them more rights than that of certain Islamic states - including Pakistan

In India, if you are rich and powerful you are above the law and you can do what ever you want
Compare us to Mexico, certain Mid-East and Eastern European countries and say that again.
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hannibal202       8/22/2007 12:06:47 PM
Err Mr Heavy Metal u seem to take into account only tank production as a criteria for defence self sufficiency. What abt the other fields like naval production. I serious have not seen any development on that front in the pakistan armed forces?? And Mr The Difender please go through a proper history book before posting any comment with respect to Indo-Pak wars.
 
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Tejas    Al-Khalid Tank   12/17/2007 9:53:44 PM
 Hmm a lot of comments on failure of arjun tank and Mr heavymetal boasts that pakistan has manufactured the al-khalid tank on their own...he he can't even laugh properly seems to be a poor joke...for your kind information mr heavymetal pakistan  manufactured the tank using china's help......rings some bells or i guess you need to do some research....on al-khalid...or perhaps i should post some comments and references for your knowledge incremement.....anyway let's go into details then...."Based on its Chinese and Soviet design ancestry, the MBT2000/Al-Khalid is considerably smaller and lighter than most western main battle tanks".

In the 1970s, the leadership of China's People's Liberation Army was concerned about the Soviet threat, and requested an improved main battle tank (MBT) to replace the Type 59. The existing Chinese tanks were direct descendants of the Soviet T-54A, and had become outmatched by more advanced Soviet models like the T-62 and T-64. Norinco and the Inner Mongolia First Machine Group Corporation were tasked to develop a series of new tanks.

After examining samples of T-72 tanks delivered by Iran in the late 1980s (captured from Iraq), the Chinese military realized that contemporary Chinese tanks were still vulnerable. Design features of the T-72 and some western tanks were used to develop a second generation of Chinese tanks, eventually incorporating a redesigned hull and suspension, a new welded turret, and 125-mm autoloaded tank gun. The Type 80 and Type 85 tanks led to the Type 90. The Type 90 was rejected for Chinese service, in favour of other designs, but it influenced further development which would lead to China's third-generation Type 98 and Type 99 tanks.

The Type 90 is an evolutionary design: the Type 90-II version shares 10% of its components with the Type 59, 15% with Type 69, 20% with Type 85/88C, and is built with 55% new components. This model was put up for sale on the international market.

A development deal was signed with Pakistan in January 1990. Initial Chinese-built prototypes were tested in Pakistan in August 1991. Pakistan spent more than USD $20 million over the next ten years on the co-development of a model suitable for their needs, and on creating a capability to manufacture it locally, under the direction of Brigadier (now Major General) Mohammad Asaad. The design team modified the tank to accept a foreign-built power pack. A number of different prototypes were evaluated.

An early version was armed with the Chinese gun and fire-control system, but had German-designed MTU-396 diesel engine which was built under licence in China. Another version was equipped with a more advanced western digital fire-control system, and powered by a Perkins 1,200-hp Condor diesel engine (as in the British Challenger) and ESM-500 automatic transmission (as in the French Leclerc). This version was considered too expensive and under-performing in the extreme heat of southern Pakistan. Finally, a version was tested with the Ukrainian 6TD-2 1,200-hp diesel engine (Ukraine also supplied Pakistan with T-80UD tanks, powered by a similar compact diesel engine). This configuration was chosen for the production version of the tank and came to be known as Al-Khalid.

Yet another version—employing more western technology—had been envisaged as an export product for Pakistan. The prototype had a 1,200-hp Ger

 
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Tejas       12/17/2007 10:56:05 PM

India is now doing right job?Buy weapons rather then indigenous flop ;-)

Oh....good on you mate...you have really discovered what india is doing and what its not....let's talk something now....come up with facts rather than coming up with short snippets of crap....here are some facts want to face them read carefully if you can....some facts and figures for you as well after mr heavymetal has been reduced to ashes.....heavymetal is a losser and you are his brother in arms...which means...i guess you can understand he he..
Some missiles which have been developed with assistance from chinese.....
Other missiles currently in the service of Pakistan are Hatf-I (BRBM), Abdali-I (BRBM), Ghaznavi (SRBM), Ghauri-II (MRBM), Ghauri-III (IRBM) (under development), Shaheen-I (MRBM), Shaheen-II (IRBM), Babur (cruise missile) and Ra'ad (cruise missile).
Want to see the list of missiles developed by India on its own......let's see.....cause i am damn sure you will be surprised....
Prithvi 1,2,3 (The Prithvi was India's first indigenously developed ballistic missile)
Agni 1,2,3 ( is an IRBM developed under the IGMDP by India)
Trishul (Trishul (Sanskrit for trident) is the name of a short range surface-to-air missile developed by India as a part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program)
Nag-Nag (Sanskrit for "cobra") is India's third generation "Fire-and-forget" anti-tank missile. It is an all weather, top attack missile with a range of 4 to 7 km.)
Akash (Akash (in Sanskrit meaning Sky) is a medium range surface-to-air missile developed as part of India's Integrated Guided Missile Development Program to achieve self-sufficiency in the area of surface-to-air missiles)
Astra-The Astra missile (from the Sanskrit Astrâ, meaning "Weapon") is an air-to-air (AA), beyond visual range (BVR) missile under development by India under its Integrated Guided Missile Development Program.)
Surya-Surya (meaning The Sun in Sanskrit and Many Indian Languages) is the codename for the first Intercontinental Ballistic Missile that
 
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