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Subject: Comparing Indian Pakistan War Scenario
swordblow_19    10/10/2005 7:07:25 AM
Hi Guys, I am from India and have always been curious as to how the militaries of both countries would find themselves in case of a full blown war. Well here's my assesment. Lets start first with India. India is a far stronger country both militarliy and economically. On paper in can easliy beat the Pakistani army. Indian infantry compared to a Pakistani are slightly better, Indian tanks are far better. The place where India is at a disadvantage is in fighter planes and missile tecnology (although u can argue that technology for India is homegrown but that is no excuse). The infantry comparisoms are for the average infantry man. There are some units in Pakistan far superior to Indian ones and vice versa. Tank divisions on the whole the Indians have a better edge. Morale I would say is almost equal but minutely more for the Paki side as the army of late has stressed more on Religion and religion as history has shown is a powerful morale booster. The army of India is larger than the Pakistani one but Pakistan is more heavily militarized. This is because of the military personnel and population ratio of respective countries. Experince is high for both India and Pak as both have been in a state of war for more than 50 years. Incase of a war the initial thrust would be Indias. But then it would be bogged down fighting the Pakis in its cities and towns. Leadership will play a critical role in any war and here Pakistan has a abundance of military leaders if only there care to leave their seats as political masters. India can easily thrust into Pakistan and capture key cities. Pakistan can also move in but in lesser places or in gaps left. Pakistan has more friends in the world than India. It has a very dangerous wild card in its hand, the support of the "Islamic Ummah". That I think is the critical factor which will turn the tide against Indian army invasion as it can lead to lakhs of voluteers joining the Paki side. The Pakistani military is moulded out of the fact that any army would have high causulties and loss of machinery in case of an invasion and this would prompt any invading force to think twice before embarking on a mission. Although both countries would not be able to hold parts of the others territory it would lead to a bloody border wars for many years. One good thing abt both countries is that they have never targetted the civilian population centres of the other which is almost unheard of in modern warfare. Neither can India defeat the Pakis descively nor can the Pakis capture or push the Indian forces inside India. It would at the end reach a stalemate where at the end people will die. Thank U. Comments welcome.
 
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ATHEIST    RE:Comparing Indian Pakistan War Scenario   10/13/2005 11:56:30 AM
coolboy, Actually any neutral will tell u that india has some ageing planes (the flying coffins should remind u that we use fighters for tran\ining) and many other aspects that sorely need to be beefed up. I'm not suggesting that PAf has a spick and span one, only that in relative comparison PAF is currently having its noses ahead, only just. Pick up a good defence weekly or monthly and you'll know the facts.
 
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counterstrike    RE:Comparing Indian Pakistan War Scenario   10/13/2005 12:08:07 PM
ATHEIST yes the mig's are getting older but the IAF is slowly but suerly moving away from them, Eager to end its dependence on the MiG-21s, the IAF announced that it intends to purchase 126 aircraft worth over US$ 6 billion in 2004. The air force sent a Request of Information (RoI) to the following manufacturers: French Mirage 2000-5Mk2, Swedish Gripen, US F 16C and the Russian MiG-29 M2. Besides the F-16s, the US has also offered the sale of F/A-18 Hornet 18E/F combat aircraft. However, the IAF seems to inclined towards purchasing the Mirage 2000-5. It recently purchased 12 of these from Qatar and has also placed an order for 29 upgraded versions of indegeniously-manufactured Jaguar IM strike aircraft. Besides 126 multi-role combat aircraft, the IAF will also buy 40 indigenously-built HAL Tejas light combat aircraft in a deal worth US$ 1.5 billion. These aircraft are expected to enter service by 2010. The HAL HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer carried out its maiden test flight in 2003 and is all set to enter service within the next 5 years. HAL recently signed a deal with the Russian Saturn DDB for supply of a specially designed engine for the trainer. The 66 Hawk T.1s will begin arriving in India from 2007. The Hawk, alongwith the HAL HJT-36, will serve the IAF's future fighter training needs. Apart from combat and training aircraft, India is also developing un-manned surveillance aircraft in collaboration with Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI). And not to forget the future Su-47 Berkut aircraft which will be more than a match to any PAK aircraft.
 
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counterstrike    RE:Comparing Indian Pakistan War Scenario   10/13/2005 11:32:19 PM
nilerider, PAF's F-16 A/B are no match to the indian SU-30, and the su-47 is not just in papers, design work has commenced on Sukhoi's experimental Su-47 Berkut aircraft. PAK FA proves to be a very ambitious program and the estimated costs for developing the 5th generation aircraft varies between 15 to 20 billion US$. The aircraft is set to go into production for the Russian and Indian Air Force in 2009. And it has already lead SU series of planes in some air shows link >>PAKISTAN HAS WON EVERY COUNTER WITH THE INDIAN AIR FORCE EVEN WHEN THEY WERE OUT NUMBERD 5-1(1971)JSUT CHECK AND SEARCH THE INTERNET.<< before making comments like this give links rather than bluntly saying search the net. link link "The Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 saw Pakistan defeated in the east and the subsequent formation of Bangladesh. The PAF was heavily outnumbered in the East (only one air base existed there in Dhaka). In the West, there were minor losses and overall, the PAF had lost a quarter of its airforce in the war. Despite some aerial victories, it had failed to provide reconnaisance or cover for its ground troops. But it fared slightly better in light of the poor performance by the other military wings, the Pakistan Army and the Pakistan Navy."-WIKIPEDIA more over JF-17 is being developed with chinese co-operation & not indigenious like the LCA.
 
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ATHEIST    RE:Comparing Indian Pakistan War Scenario   10/14/2005 4:20:52 AM
Yes some pak authors say that in 1971 war that PAF was so afraid of losing more planes that they did not respond to indian attacks on pak troops. they "thought the game was not worth it". this is the most heartening fact i've ever read about the PAF. when the going get tough the tough get going. apparantly PAF isn't that tough in real life. also winning encounters doesn't mean downing some planes and getting away with it. a win has to translate into goals. what was the goal of the first 2 kashmir wars for Pak? "liberate" kashmir. well, it didn't happen. nor did it happen in 71 when even the western portion of pak was not defended well. it seems pakistan is interested in getting "kills" and "winning" battles losing the WAR. we'll gladly take the war over battles. thank you. no wonder you pakis have not won against india. and never will.
 
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Genesis_ashok    RE:Comparing Indian Pakistan War Scenario   10/14/2005 9:46:03 AM
As a follow up of the discussions so far. i would like to add a few points: 1.I still consider Isreal to be more trustworthy than Russia or Iran. USSR never came to any strategic support in any of India's wars.Russians merely stood neutral or forced us to ceasefire when we were in an advantage in previous wars. Iran is more likely to stay neutral than help us.Our strategic ties with Isreal should not be confused stupidly with Palestinian cause. 2.Also the opinion expressed about Indian muslims is very wrong.We may have differences within our country.But when it comes to an external enemy, the partiotism of the majority of Indian Muslim should not be doubted.Some of the best soldiers and generals of previous wars with Pak were Muslims,Shiks,Parsiees and Christians. 3.Pakistan's major strategic policy is involving China along side.That is the main reason for Pakistan to sign out a portion of Kashmir (Aksai Chin) to China thus dragging in china into the kashmir issue. Now, Pakistan has allowed China to build a major Free port near Karachi in the lines of Singapore. This is a huge investment by China...and is bound to get China involved if India attacks Karachi. 4.Any comparision of the previous full blown wars with Pak is redundunt in the present scenario.Its useless to talk of 65 or 71 wars now. The technology and world political equations have changed completely. As I have said before,Todays wars depend on missile tech., Airforce and Intelligence.Mere advantage in number of soldiers is not a valid point to claim superiority. 5.Having said that, What i realy want to see is lasting peace and friendship in our region.Any suggestions on how to bring about that????
 
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paulsingh    RE:nilraider   10/14/2005 10:49:59 PM
F-16c I wanna see those match up against su-30mki. ur source is from a pskstani website which means it's going to have pkistani view. I can post the proof BR and say india won every counter. if pkistan won every war than bangladesh woudn't be created. and pakistan had more air to air victories because it became a ally of USA while india stayed nuteral.As a alley of USA it recieved aircrafts at discount if not free.while india had to pay the full price. now the times are different. IAF can control PAF anytime of the day.While the best fighter PAF has is F-16 which can be taken care of by mirage of IAF. I doubt any PAF aircraft will want to face SU-30mki. I will back my statement with RELIABLE source if required.
 
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counterstrike    RE:Comparing Indian Pakistan War Scenario   10/15/2005 4:33:56 AM
/*YES THE SU-47 IS STILL ON PAPERS it isnt even comfirmed if india will perticipate in the project*/ ok read this link "First flight September 25th 1997 In 2001, Russia initiated the PAK FA (Перспективный авиационный комплекс фронтовой авиации - Perspektivnyi aviatsionnyi kompleks frontovoi aviatsyi - Prospective Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces) program; a project to develop a next-generation fighter comparable to the Lockheed F-22 at lower cost. India was made a partner in the program early on. Both Mikoyan and Sukhoi submitted designs towards this requirement, proposing an updated MiG 1.44 and the Su-47, respectively. The Russian Defence Ministry selected the Sukhoi design for development. Most of the research and development of the PAK FA aircraft will be funded by India. The aircraft is set to go into production for the Russian Federation Air Force and the Indian Air Force around 2009. Recent reports have suggested that the Su-47 will eventually emerge as Russia's "5th Generation" fighter, which is seen as a competitor to the American Joint Strike Fighter and F-22."-wikipedia /*he paf have won every air war with the iaf for proof of a great vistory over india in 1965 visit the website link mate next time watch out the credibility of the link, I can give a link from BR as paulsingh said. /*ANYWAYS EVEN WHEN THE PAF WAS OUTNUMBERD 4-1 WE STILL CAME OUT VICOTORIUS*/ mate last time u wrote 5-1 & now 4-1 what next 0-1?...lol.. /*"PAKISTAN HAS NEVER WON A WAR WITH INDIA" MAN WHAT ARE YOU SMOKEING EVEN AT MY UNIVERSITY (VIRGINIA TECH) MY TEACHERS SAY AND TEACHES IN CIVICS CLASS THAT PAKISTAN HAS WON THE 1947 WAR AND 1965 WAR .*/ the teach abt india-pak air wars in CIVICS CLASS, what kind of a civics class is that where the teach u HISTORY instead of CIVICS.
 
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coolboyjay    ATHEIST   10/15/2005 5:38:53 AM
>>I'm not suggesting that PAf has a spick and span one, only that in relative comparison PAF is currently having its noses ahead, only just. Pick up a good defence weekly or monthly and you'll know the facts. << I am really amused at these comments and the ignorance of the writer.. CAN U BACK UP YOUR COMMENTS WITH SOME DATA?? SOME NUMBERS?? AND IF U ARE ABLE TO DO SO, THEN PLZZZ PUT UP THE LINKS TOO.. IF U CAN'T THEN PLZ SHUT UP!!
 
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ATHEIST    RE:ATHEIST   10/15/2005 10:11:48 AM
to coolboy: i think you should shut up as obviously you have not read one defence weekly or journal. not everything is online (even if it were it would be subscription based). So don't behave like a child and assume that the net is the be all and end all of info. don't be lazy and read books. nilerider is a joker. if pak won 47 war how come india has most and the best part of kashmir (incl. the valley)? or how india suffered 1000 casualties lesser than pak in 65 yet holding 3 times more land as per sources that were pro-pakistani? surely pakistan considers defeats as victories and humiliating defeats like in 71 as stalemates? hahahaha
 
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paulsingh    RE:coolboyjay   10/15/2005 5:56:53 PM
how can u say PAF is ahead of IAF when they have limited BVR while almost all of IAFhas BVR. PAF doesn't even have the capability to reach agra engage in combat and make it back. While IAF does. Even pakistani generals say IAF is superoir(will give proof if needed) IAF also has some of the highiest hours logged in espically with su-30mki. su-30mki - one of the best aircraft in service right now if not the best.
 
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