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Subject: Does israel have the best Air Force?
Worf_Israel    8/17/2003 7:15:10 AM
By what im told it is said Israel has the best trained air force in the world (i find it to be very true). it has been proven that the Israeli air force has taken on incredible odds when it comes to air force battle for example: when Israel attack the Iraq's nuclear facility, Israel sent 5 F-15 fighters to destroy the nuclear lab facility - after the f-15 cross to Iraq's air space 25 MG-22/23 (cant remember the MG number) were sent to destroy the F-15. NOT ONLY did the israel complete their mission they destroyed all 25 enemy aircraft without losing one of their own. even today it is CLEAR FACT that most US Air Force Tactics are tactics that were shown by the Israel - even today Israel has joined training with the USA (they don't talk about it) and the Israel pilots teach American pilots.(note:if you didn't know Israel and the UK has more joined training with the USA then any other country)
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Sam    RE: Zealous   11/27/2003 12:29:47 AM
Could you give a reference for some of your claims? "Finally, the record speaks for itself. In 1999 the IAF and the 6th Fleet conducted the first (and last) series of air combat exercises between the two forces. The US magazine Air Force reported that the air to air kill ratio during the exercise was 14 to 1 in favour of the Israelis. In fact, the results were so embarassing, both to the US Navy and IAF brass, that all subsequent exercises have been conducted with two joint Israeli/US teams taking on each other." Usually Air Force mag doesn't report on naval air matters, those are found in Procedings.I did find these references on USAF and IDF joint training. Note the date and the word 'First",658,163,1295 November 2, 2001 in U.S.-Israel Strategic Cooperation : Joint Exercises/Cooperative Training First joint maneuvers for IAF, USAF in Negev In a marked boost in military cooperation, the IAF held a joint exercise recently with the US Air Force over the Negev involving mid-air refueling, dogfighting, and air-to-ground attacks. While the American and Israeli air forces have a long but quiet tradition of exercising in Israel, it was the first time that their jets performed maneuvers in combined formations. And a 3% pass rate says a few things. You need to pick only college grads. It has nothing to do with smarts, it shows that they have the will to stick with a program. You need better instructors, that can actually teach not just pass on information. This is like the ground threads where "In force on force exercises in (date) the IDF kicked the USMC/US Armys butt. I never saw any force on force with the IDF. We trained on their bases, used their ranges. The only force no force was usually between Marines. Most (all) training with other services is scripted months in advance. Even between US Army v USMC. God knows how many "Purple Dragon" exercises I've done. If marines assault to Ft Bragg, the helo assault is a sucess and we meet all our objectives. If the 82d parachutes into Camp Lejeune then they defeat the MC. Acheived their forced entry, Yada, yada, yada. In the 80s when we would conduct "Northern Wedding" in Norway. Force on Force with the RMs. Day 1 they would sucessfully stop our landings. Re, Day 2 we would successfully make an opposed landing. Then switch places. They do same. Then attack, defend, retreat, counterattack. In other words, except at the planning level, its all BS. To echo Worchesters point. Would the IDF publicly state that they got their asses handed to them by the germans? These things are all PR
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ZealousZionist    RE:I rest my case: huh 2?   11/27/2003 4:36:10 AM
People, people, people. Close scrutiny of the piece I posted will reveal that it came from AP. So, since when has the Associated Press become an arm of the Israeli government? Last time I checked it was an independent news organization. As far as the obsolescence of the Mig-29 goes, it was developed later, and its aircraft are newer than many of the F-15s and 16s that were produced in the 1970s and 80s. Moreover, the Fulcrum is a very capable dogfighter that is even more manoeuverable (if reports are to be believed) than the Falcon or Eagle. And, thank you, Sam for confirming my account of the air to air maneouvers between the IAF and the US Navy. Your posting says of maneouvers done in the year 2000: "While the American and Israeli air forces have a long but quiet tradition of exercising in Israel, it was the first time that their jets performed maneuvers in combined formations." This comports perfectly with my account of the embarassment caused by the one-sided results of the IAF vs US Navy maneouvers in 1999, and the decision to conduct future training exercises in joint US/Israeli teams taking on each other. Returning to the issue of selectivity, it's extremely difficult to negotiate pilot training in Israel, as well. And, as I've previously stated, I would argue that the selection and training process substantially more demanding in the IAF than in any other airforce. The issue of a college degree is really irrelevant. While perhaps a university education adds depth to field and general grade officers, it has nothing whatsoever to do with a company grade officer's ability to fly jets or command infantry companies. This is a whole different subject, but I would argue that the Israeli method of selecting officers from the ranks is a better system than the US/UK model of separate training for officers only.
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ace2004    Culture Makes A Difference   11/27/2003 9:01:56 AM
Israeli culture of brazeness and innovation does make a difference. You may not like Israelis and how they do things but they get results (and you probably don't like the results either). This is a super-macho, in-your-face can do society. Tea party manners just don't cut it. Besides the IAF which represents Israel's elite, another example are the small high tech firms that regularly run rings around large US corporations -- in very specialized areas of course. Like the IAF, they cannot compete with the US across-the-board. The IAF is not immune from major disasters such at the 1973 war, where IAF planners considerably miscalculated the role shoulder-fired AA missles would have. On the plus side, another cultural aspect is that Israel is very good at conducting very frank and thorough self-assesments--and heads do roll after major blunders to an extent that is unusual in other countries.
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ace2004    RE:I rest my case   11/28/2003 7:08:14 AM
Your argument does not hold water when you analyse the Egyptian army during the Yom Kippur war. There is an article in the most recent Naval Proceedings which goes into some detail about how well coordinated and executed the initial crossings were, and the devastating effectiveness of MANPADS against the IAF. Besides, the Arabs have had quite a lot of support from the Soviet Union, including having Soviet pilots tangle directly with the IAF, to their great regret.
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Worf_Israel    HAHAH WOW   11/28/2003 8:42:10 AM
Wow lol I post this topic like more then 3 mouths ago and I just came to see its on the main page of Strategy page as the hottest topic in this board. Hehehe never expected that. Anyway I like to note that today even Egypt gets more financial support then Israel (and you can even check it out , they get something like 10 times more then Israel) ---------- And who trained the israelis to begin with?? wasn't the british and the french in the 1940's to the 1950's??... Well that does not really count we are talking over 60 years ago, many of the tactics used today are not even smeller or near to what was “so called” instructed by the British, DON’T FORGET the British did not tech their tactics and skills so well since they did not want the Israelis to be “better” then them or be able to seriously appose them. ----------- ...?? wasn't it the daemona nuclear plant built by the french.??? Well yes the French built some of the planet and I thank them , but they are real sorry for doing it now lol. Anyway there is more to the story then we well never know.
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Sam    ZZ grasping for straws   11/28/2003 8:47:09 AM
Who cares what news agency reported the statement. It was a statement from a IDF official. Anything from the Germans? No balance or fact checking. Then to infer that the story I brought up confirmed your "IDF beats USN" is really out there. Maybe you missed this statement in the article; For the Americans it is not unusual to participate in joint air maneuvers with a foreign air force. But for the IAF, it was a first-time event which no doubt opened the eyes of the Israeli aviators. " Did you catch the "IDF ,First time event" part? USAF and USN aircraft exercise in the Negev and US ground troops train near Beersheba at least once a year. But we don't train with, or participate in Force on Force with the IDF. The USMC on LF6F deployments go to Camp DeConjures, France on most winter Meds. And train in various countries. Doesn't mean that because we use the airspace/land that we are training with the locals same with IDF. These israel is greatest/has greatest threads are like beating your head against the wall. It feels so good when you quit. If I remember correctly all it takes to stop a IDF tank column is a USMC Capt with a M-1911 .45 pistol. Have a nice day
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swhitebull    RE:I rest my case   11/28/2003 8:53:17 AM
Hate to pipe in, but i will on this. Most of you know that I'm pretty pro-Israel. Ive read the AP article, and the Post in the StrategyPage HTMW section on the Sardinian exercises. I would put a LOT more creedence in the StrategyPage analysis and reports, over what an AP reporter who may or may not have had the military background to make an informed or intelligent anaylsis. I agree with Sam on this one swhitebull
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Boomer    Re: Does israel have the best Air Force?    11/28/2003 9:17:31 AM
Maybe I'm a little late but just saw this page now for the first time :) Anyway, The Israeli Air Force have the best pilots and the best technolegy for Dogfights. I'm not familiar with the BVM abillities (They have Amraams and Derbi - should be about the same quality is the Amraam afaik). Maybe they also have new ECM and other missiles evading techniques buy they're probably classifed. About close range dogfights: The IAF always beats the other Air Forces (incl. US/Germany/UK) in going for tail dummy dogfights. If it'll be in war it's almost 100% win for IAF in close range since they have the new home-made Python 5 Heat Seaking missile which 1st: has double range than most Sidewinders and 2nd: Can take out targets which are on your six!! It's probably impossible to get away from a plane carrying this missile :) Just my 2 cents. In c
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Boomer    p.s.   11/28/2003 9:21:00 AM
I forgot to add that The US of course has the strongest air force in the world because of its Stealth Fighters/Bombers, Heavy Bombers, a plane for each assignment (The IAF for example uses its planes for all roles and doesnt have heavy bombers) and its huge size! minus *in* @ the end of last post ;)
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Horsesoldier    RE:I rest my case   11/28/2003 9:23:26 AM
>>Your argument [that Arab armies are poor performcers] does not hold water when you analyse the Egyptian army during the Yom Kippur war. There is an article in the most recent Naval Proceedings which goes into some detail about how well coordinated and executed the initial crossings were, and the devastating effectiveness of MANPADS against the IAF.<< The Egyptians managed a well-coordinated, military effective crossing of the Suez because combined arms operations were scripted at the highest levels in the Egyptian Army (since no one below the highest level could manage them) and the Army was then tasked to rehearse how to do an assault crossing for two years. As soon as they moved beyond their script they demonstrated the usual problems with timid and inflexible small unit leadership, errors or outright lies in information transmitted back up the chain of command, etc. (If I recall correctly, for a time the Egyptian high command was relying on decrypts of IDF radio transmissions to keep track of where their forces were, since their own commanders lied to them habitually.) The Suez crossing was not exactly military brilliance, only well done by the dismal standards of Arab military performance. Consider that the IDF turned around and mounted their own assault crossing basically on the fly with a few days preparation later in the war. On the other hand, Rattle Snake rather misrepresents the situation -- first, Arab armies during the 73 War were relatively well-coordinated, internationally speaking, and certainly well equipped. They had rather intimate knowledge of Soviet doctrine which is well suited (if well executed) to dealing with Israel's capabilities, and were organized effectively to carry out that doctrine. However, they were consistently out fought by the IDF. I personally place the blame for this both at the Arab's own feet as well as the IDF's. Arab units were (and remain) dismal at any taskings which require initiative and flexibility. The IDF has consistently produced excellent small unit leaders who can be relied on to exercise the same traits the Arab small unit leaders lack. On top of that, Israeli troops consistently have demonstrated better ability to fight their weapons systems, be they tanks, jet fighters, etc. While I do not personally think that the IDF has been playing in the major league, in terms of opponents, they absolutely deserve credit for determining their enemies' weaknesses and using them against them on conventional battlefields.
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