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Subject: Does israel have the best Air Force?
Worf_Israel    8/17/2003 7:15:10 AM
By what im told it is said Israel has the best trained air force in the world (i find it to be very true). it has been proven that the Israeli air force has taken on incredible odds when it comes to air force battle for example: when Israel attack the Iraq's nuclear facility, Israel sent 5 F-15 fighters to destroy the nuclear lab facility - after the f-15 cross to Iraq's air space 25 MG-22/23 (cant remember the MG number) were sent to destroy the F-15. NOT ONLY did the israel complete their mission they destroyed all 25 enemy aircraft without losing one of their own. even today it is CLEAR FACT that most US Air Force Tactics are tactics that were shown by the Israel - even today Israel has joined training with the USA (they don't talk about it) and the Israel pilots teach American pilots.(note:if you didn't know Israel and the UK has more joined training with the USA then any other country)
 
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displacedjim       8/9/2007 8:29:24 AM

Speed (km/h): Max speed Mach 2.83
Alt. (m): 22'859

Right , anyway you seem to claim and claim and claim these things without even regarding on other factors , for example why do you continue to strive how israel has AWACS and could shot down Mig-31 when you yourself know that R-37 is far more capable than any Israel A-A missile , and besides that Russians have AWACS too and more military satellites than anyone , so I really fail too see the point , since Israel does have a disadvantage with using all sources i compared them without any and clearly said that R-77 is far capable of shooting any aircraft down , so I really fail too see the point , your claiming absolutely insane stuff as if Israel that has few modified planes to AWACS ( At least 4-5 country's have far more ) is capable of defeating any air force without beeing even seen , thats just bullcrap its not even worth discusing..


Neither Herald nor I have been arguing anything at all regarding any comparison of Israel and Russia.  Trying to decide which of the two is "best" is typically a silly game that is unlikely to produce meaningful results.  "The best" is completely dependent on the scenario, and there's little chance of coming up with a reasonable basis for comparison of the Russian Air Force to the Israeli Air Force even if we wanted to.
 
My point is that if you're going to use some performance capabilities and employment techniques of certain aircraft and missiles as part of your argument, then you ought to use valid numbers and  reasonable techniques, not exaggerations.  I couldn't care less if you or anyone else concludes the Russian Air Force is "better" than the Israeli Air Force.  But if you're going to say it's true because they have 100+ MiG-31M with radars and R-37s that have 400km ranges, then I will say something about your numbers.
 
By the way, if you've decided an important parameter to compare between the Russian and Israeli Air Forces is maximum missile ranges, you might want to factor into your argument the fact that Israeli fighters carry AIM-120 AMRAAMs, too, and that AIM-120B has about the same range as R-77, but AIM-120C has a greater range than R-77 and has about the same range as R-33.  Also, if you want to include not just the "what" in your argument but also "how many," then you also might want to consider how there are only a few fighters in the Russian Air Force that can use R-37, a few dozen fighters that can use R-77, a few hundred that can use R-33, and about a thousand that can use R-27, while the Israelis have a couple hundred that can use AIM-120 and about one hundred that can use AIM-7 (these aren't meant to be complete lists, they have other fighters, too).  But that's up to you, because I don't feel like trying to argue which Air Force is "the best."
 
 
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5thGuards       8/9/2007 8:42:24 AM
Im sorry if you missunderstand me , my point was not comparing Russian and Israel Air Force , as that is silly and a kids game ..

My only reason of pointing out things about it was the reason that you said earlyer that Israel missiles are the best in the world , that is the sole reason why i brought up AIM-120 , R-77 and R-37..
Im well aware of the AIM-120 in israel airforce , but you were claiming that Israel produced best missiles in the world that none can challange , now maybe i missunderstand you or you wrote it wrong but thats how I understand it?
BTW I belive AIM-120D has a range of about <180km which is the same as R-77M1 and not close too R-37 , but im just correcting you from what you have said ..
And also most of the RAF can use R-77 , most is Su-27SM , and most Mig-29's are also upgraded .. not that it matters just correcting you ..

So I hope you understand now that I did not mean to compare anything , I was just saying that missiles like AIM-120 , R-77 and R-37 are better than Python 5 , so sorry if you missunderstand me..

 
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Herald1234       8/9/2007 8:59:07 AM

Speed (km/h): Max speed Mach 2.83
Alt. (m): 22'859

Right , anyway you seem to claim and claim and claim these things without even regarding on other factors , for example why do you continue to strive how israel has AWACS and could shot down Mig-31 when you yourself know that R-37 is far more capable than any Israel A-A missile , and besides that Russians have AWACS too and more military satellites than anyone , so I really fail too see the point , since Israel does have a disadvantage with using all sources i compared them without any and clearly said that R-77 is far capable of shooting any aircraft down , so I really fail too see the point , your claiming absolutely insane stuff as if Israel that has few modified planes to AWACS ( At least 4-5 country's have far more ) is capable of defeating any air force without beeing even seen , thats just bullcrap its not even worth discusing..


 
READ WITH EXTREME CARE, 5TH GUARDS.
 
I never wrote that Israel used AWACS support to down the MiG 25s it splashed. I wrote it used Ground Controlled Intercept.
 
I also wrote that I did not discuss Israel specifically with respect to your misconceptions regarding the MiG 31..
 
Now you want to use Mach 2.8 dash speed as cruise speed?
 
I suggest that you stop the internet fanboy crap and read the following  sentences carefully.
 
When a jet engine goes into reheat, the jet fuel is dumped directely into the exhaust after turbine and is ignited by the exhaust heat to boost the final exhaust velocity of the propellant mass. This burns jet fuel at an enormous rate. Depending on the type of engine the fuel consumption rate can go from 20x to 100x  normal subsoinic cruise burn rates. A  fuel reserve that allows MACH 0.9 for 120 minutes will be burned off in 4 minutes flat or less.
 
Under reheat the Soloviev D30 engines can increase their internal operating core temperatures from 1300 C to nearly 2300 C. Now that  may not mean anything to you, but to me; unless Russian jet engine designers learned a lot more than they actually have about turbine blade intercooling, that means that your Soloviev melts into slag and throws metal after about 400 seconds at 2000 C.
 
So there are two easily checked and well known reasons why the FOXHOUND doesn't perform the way you think.
 
The R-37;
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Vympel_R37.svg/631px-Vympel_R37.svg.png" width=631 border=0> 
 
 
 This huge rocket is neither agile nor designed to engage fighters. It kills airliner sized and airliner flight performance envelop aircraft.
 
It also is range limited in direct fly out to about 100 kilometers. By lofting it you increase that flyout range 2.5x+; but then you have to hand off updating to a forward platform which can telemeter the final course correctives to guide the rocket into its drop basket. It is the actual way the Russians were able to accomplish the phenomenol 300 kilometer downrange drone splash test they pulled off.
 
Here is something that might surprise you.
 
The MiG 31 FOXHOUND fired the R-37 off in a pop-up maneuver and a FLANKER flying ahead of the Vympel as it arced through its parabola picked the drone up on its own radar and captured the R-37 as well in its downward plunge ahead of the FLANKER's search cone. The Su-30; feeding steering instructions, course corrected the Vympel through the merge, until the R-37 RH picked out the drone, itself, at a range of 17 kilometers. IMPRESSIVE! It was quite an incredible telemetry achievement, even if the test was a propaganda stunt designed to Potenmkim Village Russian air defense.capabilities. 
 
Now that you read this, I want you to do some serious research [including such things as how jet engines work, limitations of ballistic flight profiles, and how radar performance peculiarly degrades under simple conditions like hot tropical air close to the ocean's surface] before you start fanboying again. Also please read carefully before yo
 
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5thGuards       8/9/2007 11:00:32 AM
You are the 1 claiming things I did not say now , now when exactly did I say R-37 was designed or would engage any fighter ? Why are you claiming I said that..
And also I said Mig-31's top supercruise speed is 2.83 mach which is true..
And also you did not claim about the AWACS some other guy did ..

 
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displacedjim       8/9/2007 1:12:50 PM

Im sorry if you missunderstand me , my point was not comparing Russian and Israel Air Force , as that is silly and a kids game ..

My only reason of pointing out things about it was the reason that you said earlyer that Israel missiles are the best in the world , that is the sole reason why i brought up AIM-120 , R-77 and R-37..
Im well aware of the AIM-120 in israel airforce , but you were claiming that Israel produced best missiles in the world that none can challange , now maybe i missunderstand you or you wrote it wrong but thats how I understand it?
BTW I belive AIM-120D has a range of about <180km which is the same as R-77M1 and not close too R-37 , but im just correcting you from what you have said ..
And also most of the RAF can use R-77 , most is Su-27SM , and most Mig-29's are also upgraded .. not that it matters just correcting you ..

So I hope you understand now that I did not mean to compare anything , I was just saying that missiles like AIM-120 , R-77 and R-37 are better than Python 5 , so sorry if you missunderstand me..


You've been posting here for a couple days now, and that's great; it's always nice to see some new people show up.  However, if you plan to stick around, could you please try to be more careful about who you claim is saying what.  I only started posting in this thread after you and Ya222 started going at it over what missiles are best and who can shoot down AWACS and comparing the Russian Air Force to the Israeli Air Force.  Once again, for the last time (I hope), I did not start those comparisons and I'm not saying you are wrong about which missile is "best" or whatever, I'm only telling you what the correct numbers are.  Thank you for clarifying that you meant AIM-120D and R-77M as the versions that have a 180km range.  I do not have enough information to dispute that number, so I won't try.  However, regarding R-37 you would be wise to reread what Herald and I have written about its range.  Also, you're certainly wrong that "most" Su-27 and MiG-29 have already been upgraded to use R-77.  That isn't even close to being true.  I agree with you about the missiles to the extent that yes, AIM-120, R-77, and R-37 have a much longer range than Python 5.
 
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Herald1234       8/9/2007 1:53:38 PM

You are the 1 claiming things I did not say now , now when exactly did I say R-37 was designed or would engage any fighter ? Why are you claiming I said that..
And also I said Mig-31's top supercruise speed is 2.83 mach which is true..
And also you did not claim about the AWACS some other guy did ..


The MiG 31 DOES NOT SUPERCRUISE. You confuse dash on afterburner with sustained MACH 1+ cruising throughput on the turbines alone and bypass alone which is what supercruise is. The Soloviev D-30 has not demonstrated this capability at all.
 
I read you quite closely. You did not ewxclude me aa a person who mentioned AEWACs as I specifically excliuded AWACs as an Israeli FOXBAT engagement profile.
Herald
 
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5thGuards       8/9/2007 2:44:37 PM
Im sorry Herald , my mistake about supercruise , only 2 aircrafts in the world can perform it + Mig MFI 1.44 with a upgraded engine.

Anyway I will quote you the points where Yak claimed about these things.

First he said this about Israel Airforce and told about country's that supposedly have weaker airforce than Israel.

Note the highlited parts are from the person claiming this


""""
Best aircraft ? No. --- best missiles? yes
Biggest airforce ? Not by far. -- size doesn't matter - israel shows it by existing everyday..

Russia (in the last 25 years israel shot 90 russian jets while losing none)
UK -- why? isn't can strike the UK just like that UK can strike israel....
France  -- this must be a bad joke of yours
Germany ( Getting eurofighters ) --- must be boring to be a jet pilot at a country that hardly ever fought anyone in the last 60 years
, India could probably too ( Su-30Mki , and high experienced and good trained pilots and eqipment ) . --------- israel upgraded almost all of the indian airforce = we know what they have = we have better equipment , they're one of our best allies anyway
China is doubtfull , most of their airforce is old seriusly out to date aircraft , only about 150-200 are medium old, and a few are new. China could probably give Israel a run for their money though , but with mostly outdate aircraft they would have big losses too.. Good tactics is all what Israel would need. ---- they're army is better than what you made it look..... not only size..
   """
"""
Well you can put a chopper with the missiles we have and shoot down a su-30

lmao YES YOU GOT IT RIGHT THAN - my statement was the make ur statement look stupid because in 2007 it doesn't matter what jet u got, it's the missiles and early detection.."""

 
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Herald1234       8/9/2007 3:06:05 PM

Im sorry Herald , my mistake about supercruise , only 2 aircrafts in the world can perform it + Mig MFI 1.44 with a upgraded engine.

Anyway I will quote you the points where Yak claimed about these things.

First he said this about Israel Airforce and told about country's that supposedly have weaker airforce than Israel.

Note the highlited parts are from the person claiming this


""""
Best aircraft ? No. --- best missiles? yes
Biggest airforce ? Not by far. -- size doesn't matter - israel shows it by existing everyday..

Russia (in the last 25 years israel shot 90 russian jets while losing none)
UK -- why? isn't can strike the UK just like that UK can strike israel....
France  -- this must be a bad joke of yours
Germany ( Getting eurofighters ) --- must be boring to be a jet pilot at a country that hardly ever fought anyone in the last 60 years
, India could probably too ( Su-30Mki , and high experienced and good trained pilots and eqipment ) . --------- israel upgraded almost all of the indian airforce = we know what they have = we have better equipment , they're one of our best allies anyway
China is doubtfull , most of their airforce is old seriusly out to date aircraft , only about 150-200 are medium old, and a few are new. China could probably give Israel a run for their money though , but with mostly outdate aircraft they would have big losses too.. Good tactics is all what Israel would need. ---- they're army is better than what you made it look..... not only size..
   """
"""
Well you can put a chopper with the missiles we have and shoot down a su-30

lmao YES YOU GOT IT RIGHT THAN - my statement was the make ur statement look stupid because in 2007 it doesn't matter what jet u got, it's the missiles and early detection.."""



You have a point, 5th Guards. I guess lugging around a cannon like the F-22 does and like every Russian fighter has regardless of the geez whiz missiles we hang off our aircraft is STUPID.
 
Funny that Israel insists that their pilots train in deflection shooting and aerial gunnery?
 
And here I always thought it was who was smarter in the use of his aircraft and aerial weapons and the EW who won the air supremacy battle.
 
Herald
 
 
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5thGuards       8/9/2007 4:04:17 PM
The thing you highlighted was not written by me btw.
 
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Herald1234       8/9/2007 8:01:21 PM

The thing you highlighted was not written by me btw.

I know.
Herald
 
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