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Subject: Does israel have the best Air Force?
Worf_Israel    8/17/2003 7:15:10 AM
By what im told it is said Israel has the best trained air force in the world (i find it to be very true). it has been proven that the Israeli air force has taken on incredible odds when it comes to air force battle for example: when Israel attack the Iraq's nuclear facility, Israel sent 5 F-15 fighters to destroy the nuclear lab facility - after the f-15 cross to Iraq's air space 25 MG-22/23 (cant remember the MG number) were sent to destroy the F-15. NOT ONLY did the israel complete their mission they destroyed all 25 enemy aircraft without losing one of their own. even today it is CLEAR FACT that most US Air Force Tactics are tactics that were shown by the Israel - even today Israel has joined training with the USA (they don't talk about it) and the Israel pilots teach American pilots.(note:if you didn't know Israel and the UK has more joined training with the USA then any other country)
 
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USN-MID    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/4/2004 1:28:45 AM
I'm pretty sure if you look at the "bigger picture" you'll realize that the IDF was caught with their pants down during the Yom Kippur War due to political restrictions on RoEs. They knew it was coming but were ordered to not respond with "potentially aggravating" preparations. Maybe I'm mixing my wars up(God knows the Izzies had a whole crapload of em) but I'm pretty sure it was the Yom Kippur War.
 
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Gray    RE:pilot selection   5/4/2004 9:57:09 AM
I'm not going to comment on FAF / USAF / IDF-AF pilot selection, but what I would point out is that RAF pilot selection is considerably INFERIOR to FAA pilot selection. (Obviously) they're both recruiting from the British population, but being much smaller the FAA sets far higher entry requirements, and then, even higher requirements to fly fast jets. FAA helicopter pilots are nearly all of the standard of RAF jet pilots. You can add to that the superior FAA training (landing on carriers and operating with warships) over the RAF. I'm not saying the RAF are badly trained, or that individual pilots are great, just talking averages and degrees of excellence.
 
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Weekend pilot    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/4/2004 9:41:29 PM
The IAF got caught with its pants down in the Yom Kippur War because it failed to heed the lessons of the War of Attrition over the Suez Canal, where the IDF never really confronted or solved the threat posed by the SA-6 missile. The IDF as a whole, and pretty much all of Israeli society, got caught with its pants down because they came to believe their own press from the 6 day war, i.e., they were the greatest and couldn't be beaten by an Arab army. Buying into that stupidity almost cost them the country. Its to the everlasting credit of the junior officers and enlisted personnel of the IDF, and specifically not the generals (including Moshe Dayan, who panicked, and David Elezar, who was ineffective) that they turned it around. But it was a close run thing. Dayan wanted to nuke the Egyptians and Syrians.
 
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Weekend pilot    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/4/2004 9:49:35 PM
IDF doesn't have IFV's because they can't afford them. However, the Acharizit and its derivatives can move troops around on a fire saturated battlefield pretty well. They take the turret off a Centurion or T-54 and replace it with an equivalent weight in armor, ending up with a 50 ton APC. Only weapon system is an overhead MG station, operable under cover. Makes you wonder why they don't mount a 20mm on top. The Merkava's can hold 8 men if they cut down on the ammo load.
 
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Weekend pilot    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/4/2004 9:58:41 PM
Well, I got accepted by Marine aviation - so obviously they're not very selective!
 
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USN-MID    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/5/2004 1:00:20 AM
Which Marines? And selectivity is such an...interesting measure of quality. Case in point: USAF vs USN(USMC) pilots. USAF pilots take an inanely annoying and long aviation exam called the AFOQT. It sucks. The USN takes a short pathetically easy exam called the ASTB. The USAF wants engineering or science majors ONLY in its planes. The USN doesn't care what major you were as long as you can get through flight school. The USAF, by repuation, is very anal about medical standards. A long forgotten broken bone playing peewee soccer will wrap you up in red tape. The USN medical staff, NAMI, is reportedly just as anal, but if you're persistent enough and your DQ condition really IS harmless for aviation(umm...trivial congenital heart condition, flat feet, etc.), they'll pass you. In the end, which service has the better pilot? I'd say the Navy, but I can't be objective can I? So does selection really matter? Remember, some of the greatest aces, and warriors in history had real weird problems: the greatest USMC Vietnam War sniper had MS, a few of the greatest Japanese samurai had TB and died young, one of the greatest WW1 French aces was sickly from childhood and couldn't pass basic military service physicals, Mannock, a UK ace had a bad eye, Chuck Yeager never went to college, the list is ENDLESS. I personally think selection, up to a certain point, is meaningless.
 
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Gray    RE:More on selection   5/5/2004 7:46:54 AM
Think we're talking at cross purposes on 'selection' USN-MID - perhaps and indication of how things are done different in the UK / US. In the UK education is largely irrelevent in the armed forces, with the obvious exception of engineers etc who need it. All pilots, as with the USN, can fly, well, if they can fly, not if they have a degree! When I said FAA selection is more difficult than RAF selection I was refering to aptitude and co-ordination tests, not written tests per se - testing skills a pilot uses rather than intelligence. The FAA demands a higher score than the RAF for entry on this test. Selection for rotary / fast jet is then based on how well you do in your evaluations at flight school (higher marks getting fast jet). Again, the FAA has a higher pass mark for fast jet. This means, as I mentioned earlier, and obviously there are many individual exceptions, based on flying evaluations there are RAF pilots who wouldn't have made the FAA grade, and RAF jet pilots who would have been relegated to rotary in the FAA (and vice versa).
 
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Weekend pilot    RE:More on selection   5/6/2004 6:10:58 AM
In the U.S., the selection process to become an officer of any kind is based on having a degree of some kind. To be a pilot you have to be an officer, so no degree, no pilot selection. I have never understood the rationale behind this. Graduating from college in and of itself does not make you officer material, and certainly not pilot material. Israel inducts every man and woman at 18, before they go to college, and selects pilots out of that pool. Others who eventually become officers work their way up the ranks, beginning at the lowest with the best getting promoted at each step. Evidently the RAF operates the same way. After military service, Israeli kids go to college. Personally, and as aircraft become more computer driven and robot-like, I think the best pilot candidates would be people like my girlfriends daughter, who can simultaneously IM 200 people, a feat which I cannot even begin to comprehend.
 
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Gray    RE:More on selection   5/6/2004 10:27:39 AM
I agree (although I'm speaking from outside the system) that requiring a degree to be an officer seems crazy. The RAF does resrict flying to officers, but as I said, the education requirements aren't exactly high. Whilst you are sent to gain certain degrees for certain senior roles in the UK military, the attitude at first is 'you don't need it, but we won't discriminate against you if you get it, as that would put off 30% society.'
 
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sten wolf    RE:Does israel have the best Air Force?   5/6/2004 2:59:35 PM
"IDF doesn't have IFV's because they can't afford them. However, the Acharizit" typo there. should be ACHZARIT.
 
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