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Subject: Indonesia buys Su-27's/30's: It had to happen.
Aussiegunner    7/29/2003 7:26:09 AM
I read a bit of bad news for all of us Aussies today. Indonesia is to take purchase of 2 SU-27's and 2 SU-30's, the first of a possible 24 of each type to be bought. Apparently this puts our upgraded F/A-18 force 4th in quality, behind Singapore and Malaysia(fortunately both allies), and Indonesia, in our immediate region. The Hornet's are also suffering centre barrel fatigue, which means that training hours are being limited to preserve the airframes. To make it worse, the Indonesians are looking at buying S-300's and an intergrated air-defence system, which seriously degrades the deterrant posed by our F-111's and their AGM-142's. While the current Indonesian government is relitively friendly, their are lots of Generals who are pissed off about our involvement in the liberation of East Timor. If their were a coup, it could spell trouble for us. I don't see that our government has any choice but to upgrade our airforce, to get us through the next 10 years before the JSF can be expected to arrive. Possible options are, -Leasing/buying new fighters until the JSF arrives. The late model F-16's would solve the fatigue problems of the F-18's, but would not give a real advantage over the SU-27. -An F-18E/EF-18G combo would be formidable, with the EW aircraft giving us a real advantage, though I don't like the idea of the "E's" getting caught without the "G's". This plan would however have training/maintainance advantages, as we already use F-18's. -A "silver bullet" force of F-22's has been suggested as part of the JSF buy, to give us a clear air to air advantage over any adversary. The government has rejected this, but mabye the idea or a variation of it needs to be introduced to get us through the next few years. While the F-22 may be to expensive/not available to Australia, a squadron of Typhoon's, to replace the oldest F-18's, may give us the edge we need. The F-18's could then be kept in reserve and rotated through the remaining squadrons, to extend the life of the force and give the pilots the hours they need. This would also give us an independent ability to provide dissimilar air combat training, though it would introduce another completely different logistics train. -ALCM's like the Joint Standoff Weapon for the F-111's, outranging the S-300s would provide us with the deterrant we need. They would also mean the F-111's could continue to adopt the less demanding high-level approach. -Long-range missile defences(ie, Patriots), for our northern facilites and for Darwin has also been suggested. Any thoughts on this?
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Indonesia buys Su-27's/30's: It had to happen - Aussiegunner   9/1/2003 5:02:29 AM
Yes, it would secure the next few years. On SAM's, I think the HUMRAAM(Humvee mounted AMRAAM) would be an excellent choice of medium range SAM for Australia. In particular, it can engage cruise missiles, which would be an excellent capability if any SU-30 launched missiles(250km range I believe, can't remember the designation) managed to slip the net.
 
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Massive    RE:Indonesia buys Su-27's/30's: It had to happen - Aussiegunner   9/1/2003 8:45:55 AM
Stick it on a bushmaster and call it a BUSHRAAM... Still haven't really worked out why they are going to so much trouble to bu Bushmaster... Whoops - not really a topic for this page...maybe at a later date on armour...
 
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Wedge    RE:Indonesia buys Su-27's/30's: It had to happen - Aussiegunner   9/1/2003 1:00:11 PM
I don't think you folks down under need to worry that much. More important than the equipment is the avionics and the training. As long as your pilots get plenty of training (which you say may be a problem with fatigue issues) and keep the avionics updated you'll have no trouble handling the Indo flyboys in a conflict.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Indonesia buys Su-27's/30's: It had to happen - Wedge   9/1/2003 8:22:15 PM
Yes, the fatigue issue is a big worry. I was horrified when I heard our Hornet pilots were getting "selective training" to conserve airframe hours. On the positive side, I doubt the Indonesians will be getting any active homing AAM's, like the AA-10 or AA-12. While we have AMRAAMS we have a big advantage against anyone using semi-active homing missiles like the AA-7. A SARH missile equiped fighter has to keep their nose pointed at you while the AMRAAM equiped one can turn and fly in the other direction during the later stages of flight, meaning allowing them to effectively outrange thier opponent.
 
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Thomas    RE:Australias defence   9/2/2003 3:52:45 AM
What I don't quite understand is: Australia is a huge area with up to now minor threats against this territory. This should indicate a lot of simpler aircraft at more locations - and there are plenty of good F-16's around for a reasonable price.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Australias defence   9/2/2003 10:39:35 PM
That stratagy would not work, for a number of reasons. These include, 1. Lack of pilots. RAAF trained pilots command high salaries in the airlines, and having train more of them would simply exacerbate our current manning problems. 2. Airfields - What you would save on cheap F-16's, you would spend building more airfields. Don't forget as well that the extra airfields would have to be built thousands of kilometres from the nearest city, making them even more expensive to maintain. Also, pilots and their spouses don't want to live in the middle of nowhere, exacerbating the pilot shortage again. 3. Capability - There is not point having a bunch of F-16A's when they would be promptly shot down by a bunch of SU-27's. Also, they have an even worse range than the F-18A, limiting our ability to patrol offshore installations, provide air-cover for the navy, escort the F-111's and provide anti-shipping strike. Finally, one engine is no good when you usually operate over water. We really need a fighter with F-15C/F-18E type range and with the ability, with force multipliers if necessary, to defeat the SU-27/30. It is better for us to have less airframes of a higher quality.
 
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Thomas    RE:Australias defence   9/3/2003 4:18:12 AM
Ok. what we are really talking is a pilot shortage problem. 1 versus 2 engines: The magazine AirForce had an article about the issue a couple of years back. the gist of the conclusion was that it really didn't matter - the issue was tactics. I agree with the conclusion, as modern jet engines are pretty reliable and if you get hit, probably both engines are broken. But I see your point: What you need is an F-18 with double range. The old argument between European and American fighters. European have generally been short on range, but good on accelleration. Example: Lightning, there have been produced cigarette lighters with more fuel; but the problem on take-off was to avoid going supersonic once the roller-skates were picked up. The solution seems to be what you suggest some sort of F-18, with 2 engines - just for comfort. Then supplement it with tankers. Have you looked into a C-130J with refuelling equipment. Yes I know it is a prop; but they go quite fast and can fly over nasty weather. The time factor should be manageable - If it is nothing else, then the NOrthern Territory is strategic depth.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Australias defence   9/3/2003 5:21:45 AM
Yes, an F-18 with double the range. Or at least one with 40% more range, like the F-18E... Which brings me back to my arguement that about 48 more of these(+ 12 F-18G's) should be bought/leased to replace the F-111's and supplement the F-18A's, until the JSF arrives. As for the Northern Territory giving strategic depth, I doubt that the good citizens of Darwin or Broome would think much of that theory. Neither would the owners of all the offshore oil and gas installations that we have up there. I'm afraid the "scorched earth" stratagy that we adopted in WW2 is long gone. We need to stop an enemy before they reach our shores, and long range fighters and strike aircraft are the key to this.
 
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Heorot    RE:Australias defence   9/3/2003 5:27:35 AM
Since you say the the Northern Territory must be defended, and is clearly the front line for Australia, What % of your armed forces are based there? You need airfields and enough ground troops to defend them at least.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Australias defence   9/3/2003 5:58:00 AM
Our home defence stragy focusses on the defence of the north(amongst other things), but is primarily an airforce/naval stratagy. We rely on the ability to send an invader to the bottom of the ocean before they get to our shores. Hence, we emphasise long-ranged strike assets like the F-111, high performance fighters (the F-18), surface units capable of long-ranged, independent ops and big conventional submarines. The army is primarily poised in a base defence role(mainly against light/special forces) and is mainly based in the cities south of the northern territory, to be moved north as a threat develops. This is because the military bases have traditionaly been based there(hence the defence owns land there), and because of recruiting issues(not everybody wants to live in a tin-pot little town like Darwin). In recent years we have improved our ability to deploy them quickly by road, in armoured trucks, because of the threat of ambush/mines by light forces. Naturally the airforce can be deployed to northern bases at short notice, and the Navy operates off both East and West coasts, and patrols the north regularily. Additionally, we have have recently moved the majority of our armoured and mechanised forces to Darwin. There are 2 manned and 3 unmanned airfields (to be used during war, which keep. We also keep a squadron of F-18's in Darwin on short notice to move. We also have three reserve recon battalions, which use mainly farmers and aborigines familiar with the local environment, to patrol the north during peacetime and war. Finally, we have an over the horizon radar network that will detect anything, on the surface or in the air, trying to cross the ocean to get here, and very strong human/electronic intellegence capabilites that(hopefully) will allow us time to build-up to counter any threat.
 
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