Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Air Defense Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Minimal Air Defense
Roman    5/29/2007 8:57:07 PM
What kind of minimal air defense (in terms of personnel and equipment) would be the smallest air defense worth having? By 'minimal' I mean the smallest that is still worth obtaining and maintaining at all - any smaller and one would be better off not fighting for the skies at all and investing the money elsewhere.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   NEXT
murabit821       6/12/2007 1:24:49 PM
ja si to vzdy peltiem zo stredoskolakmi tu uz hadam koncili ci ne, fakt neviem u mna je to furt rovnake
to budes mat aj prazdniny potom ?

pripravim apson styri varianty PVO na tych rakiet a zopar gulometov

skusim vyzistit ceny tuna


 
Quote    Reply

murabit821       6/12/2007 1:26:55 PM
i have some Questions

who know current price of MANPADS (IGLA,STINGER?)

at how about ZU-23-2 what is current price ?

 
Quote    Reply

displacedjim       6/12/2007 2:09:01 PM
If you're only trying to hit helicopters, fine.  Otherwise, don't bother considering AAA that's not radar-directed.
 
Quote    Reply

Roman       6/12/2007 3:20:06 PM
Displacedjim, as an Air Defense expert, what would you suggest as a minimal AD that you would consider worthwhile to bother with having?
 
Quote    Reply

B.Smitty       6/12/2007 3:24:26 PM

Remain 84 for training  (spares +kerozen/gaz) and procurement.Assuming a 32 yr service life, they have a 2688 m USD budget

They could field a force of 50 000 men, 600 bonus shell, 18 SP artillery and 18 towed, 225 milan 3, 225Mistral and 108 120 mm mortars.Cost: almost 1050 m USD



A 32 year procurement cycle?  What, are you going to buy 1 Rafale ever 5 years?  Is this nation going to have to wait until 2039 before their non-minimal air defenses are in place?   Did you factor in 32 years of inflation?  Did you factor in mid life upgrades for all of this hardware over that 32 year period?

Also, what about trucks, C4ISR, night vision equipment, and all the other misc equipment that makes a modern military go? 

8m USD for infrastructure?  What will that buy?  Sure won't by much in the way of base improvements, new training facilities, etc., not to mention air traffic control, or any modern communications.  Will this even cover electricity and water?

Also, if you have a combat force of 3-4000, you'll likely have to pay a similar number of civilians or military personnel performing all manner of non-combat duties from answering phones, to cooking and cleaning, to maintenance, and so on.


 
Quote    Reply

B.Smitty       6/12/2007 3:26:58 PM

Remain 84 for training  (spares +kerozen/gaz) and procurement.Assuming a 32 yr service life, they have a 2688 m USD budget


Also, what about the Navy?   Don't they get any money?
 
Quote    Reply

murabit821       6/12/2007 4:01:46 PM
hmm

as east europens we consider on cheap armies than ist west
i was  one year concript to mechanized infantry
one time we live 50 in one rooom (heating sometimes not working)
we can wash one time per week (meny time only cold water)
buildings are old , equipment too
feeding for 4 usd per day (in my garison there is best meals from many Armies we have normal meals make by cooks)
in other garison they eat all time cans and beacons
MRE like meal but for on day cost about 5 usd

but this is all very good my father lived 6 month in tents durring autumn and winter  when his unit received new BMPs

payment, services , building , foods , energy and many others are cheap , become more cheap when you go more to east
when we calculate equipment for soldiers (all equipment from  tactical vest, helm, bags, uniform to socs , without weapons  )
this cost 1080 usd (and this can be cheap when we calculate with more commercial equipment )

that doing war cost less than west armies do

for example stupid Czechs buy 8x8 Pandur for 5 milion usd each (they adopd stryker concept)
that how many infantry with weapons can be equipmend for this 5 mil usd ?


 
Quote    Reply

murabit821       6/12/2007 4:12:27 PM
with buying new equipment countires like Hungaria and Czech republic adopt leasings

when czechs buy  JAS-39 thay buy this for leasing
contract cost 1,034 bilion usd for 14 fighters for 10 years
normal JAS -39 cost about 50mil usd , in this contract cost 74 mil usd average per fighter
advantage of this , Czech have fighters all 14 at one time and pay each year just about 100mil usd
leasing are good solution for small nations

 
Quote    Reply

displacedjim       6/12/2007 9:28:46 PM
Roman, I think you've gotten excellent advice in this thread already.  I basically would just repeat what's been said (or at least those parts that I would have even thought of).  I'd say Slovakia's air defense needs to be tailored with its presumed threat in mind.  You specified Hungary and Slovenia as the threat.  These threat forces are predominately 1) helicopters, and 2) jets that will need to deliver their ordnance from relatively low altitude.  Therefore, I note first of all that you really don't have any pressing need for high-altitude air defense.  However, since you have few fixed wing assets of your own, I think it still may be cost-effective and prudent to keep your S-300s around if possible as one of your few means of combatting high-altitude flyovers of your country, as well as being a very capable system against even low-flying jets.  The primary need seems to be low to mid altitude air defense.  If you weren't a NATO country I'd suggest things like 2S6, PANTsIR, and TOR, supplemented by a bunch of SA-18s spread throughout.  However, I'm afraid I'm really not too conversant with what's available as the Blue equivalents of those systems, but some have been mentioned already.  I really do not have a lot of wisdom to share, but if you want to e-mail me we can discuss it a bit more.
 
Quote    Reply

B.Smitty       6/12/2007 9:29:09 PM

with buying new equipment countires like Hungaria and Czech republic adopt leasings

when czechs buy  JAS-39 thay buy this for leasing
contract cost 1,034 bilion usd for 14 fighters for 10 years
normal JAS -39 cost about 50mil usd , in this contract cost 74 mil usd average per fighter
advantage of this , Czech have fighters all 14 at one time and pay each year just about 100mil usd
leasing are good solution for small nations


I agree that leasing might be a better option, but this country has a TOTAL defense budget of only 144mil USD.  There's no way it could even pay 50mil per year for 10 years for 7 Gripens and still afford to maintain and fly them, and pay for the rest of its military. 

If anything, they should look at leasing some of the low-hour F-16As the US has in storage.  These could be had at one point for ~$20 mil with MLU upgrade, IIRC. 

But even so, I would still opt for SAMs.  The more dispersed, the better.  Buying 6 hangar toys just isn't practical, IMHO.

Besides, OPFOR air forces aren't exactly world beaters.  Knocking down a few aircraft with MANPADs would push them up over 10-15k ft and force them to use PGMs to get any bombing accuracy (if they have any).  It would also strictly limit the use of their helo squadrons.

Remember folks, the country we are talking about has the defense budget of Kyrgystan. 

For reference, Kyrgystan has 48 Mig-21s (holdovers from the Soviet days - probably very few are flyable), 4 L-39s, a handful of transports and helos, and 12 SA-4s.

Their Army also has 24 ZSU-23s and 24 S-60s. 

They can't even afford Mig-29s, let alone 4+ gen fighters like Gripen or Rafale.

The only way they could, IMHO, is through foreign military assistance. 



 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics