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Subject: Most capable SAM at the moment
red star    5/25/2003 5:50:56 PM
I would bet my money on the S-300. Seeing that russia concentrated so much on SAMs and this is their best on-i do genuinly agre that even Patriot can't bat this sweety. But thats just my humble opinion. Wots urs?
 
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gf0012-aus    Energy levels at max terminal range - Boris   2/9/2004 5:28:25 AM
Not sure if we actually addressed this but: Will a LR anti-AWACs missile be at the end of its energy bleed at 300k's due to thrust then coast to intercept or is it 300k's on sustained energy to make a kinetic as well as explosive kill? AFAIK on some western AWACs the detection range is in the 450k range, that would mean that the interceptor would have to close within at least 50-100k's of system visibility before it could launch. I guess it then becomes an issue of closing speeds and evasion issues.
 
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Bob    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   2/9/2004 6:33:22 AM
I don't mean to just dismiss the whole scenario with a wave of the hand, but I think the likelihood is low. The reality of these Su-27 variants and their armaments is this: if the Raptors see them, fight's over. The AWACS are going to be operating at a safe enough distance in the initial phases of the conflict, before at least partial air superiority has been achieved, with at least some buffer room to stay out of the range of these long range missiles. We can argue the R-77 vs the AMRAAM all day and night, but the fact of the matter is that the Sukhois aren't going to see the Raptors until they're well within what, 15km? waay less? What are even the unclassified specs on who can see a Raptor and at what range? The APG-77 is going to see these guys before they see the Raptor, with or without AWACS support. Even as the Raptor's radar spikes their aircraft, they're not going to be able to tell due to the LPI capability of the Raptor's radar. With datalink, only one ship is going to need have their radars turned on. I drool over the tactics that these guys are going to employ, a four ship flight of Raptors, between the situational awareness the radar provides, the datalink, and the AMRAAMc-8, if I was a pilot up against the US I'd pull a Gulf War scenario and jet to Iran. Until the Russians or the Chinese get a 5th generation fighter into the air that isn't just the subject of silly speculation by western enthusiasts like myself, they can develop all the advanced, long range AWACS killing missiles they like, I don't see them getting an aircraft into the fight with a chance to use them. To do almost a complete 180, I suppose on say, the fifth day of a conflict, a capable Flanker pilot could get airborne via a dual use highway strip that hasn't been cratered to hell, scream supersonic towards an AWACS or a Tanker an execute an attack. He may not even need the R-77 or its variants, an Archer will do, but what're both the odds and the tactical worth of that? Aside from say, the political value of bringing down such an aircraft in the mighty US inventory, thus causing visitors to the StrategyPage forums to chat on and on about superior Russian systems and tactics for decades to come :) .
 
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gandalf    Types of SAMS   2/27/2004 12:28:42 AM
Here we are, talking about SAMs. Maybe you need to specify SAMs for what purpose? ABM-SAMs? Patriot PAC3 seems to be the proven winner in this respect. If I were a manufacturer, I'd send my top contender to Iraq to give it a shot. Anti-aircraft SAMs? The S-300/400 looks capable, but has it ever been tested? It may be the champ, but we'll never know unless someone shoots a couple when they're pissed off. Anti-AWACS-SAM? The Russian anti-AWACS sounds nice. I was wondering if you could maybe mount some AAMs in the nose of a SCUD. Ride the SCUD to the ballpark area and set them loose. Low probability, yes, probably. Higher probability compared to all the jets you'd lose sending jets after an AWACS? Heck yeah.
 
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JJFS    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   3/9/2004 10:09:43 PM
"1st, the anti-AWACS missile (to which america still has no answer) can launch from over 300km (more like 350 with the external booster). that's approaching the limits of the AWACS detection range." Are you to suggest that any fighter has a greater detection range than an AWACS? "2nd, There will be an AWACS escort, but the "shooters" are quite capable when it comes to self-defence (the R-77 OUTRANGES the AMRAAM, remember?), " Well, it all depends on what sort of escorts and shooters we are talking about. It also depends on which versions of Amraam are being employed. R-77 may have greater range than Aim-120B, but I find it hard to believe it has much more range than Aim-120c5 or c6. It almost certainly has far less range than C7 (which was built at the behest of the navy to offest the loss of the Phoenix.) In your other post, you spoke of the later marks of the R-77 having greater range due to larger size. This may not be the case, if the C7 amraam is based on the ERAAM (as is rumored). I do believe the AWACS would be in trouble if escorted by current generation aircraft. Next generation aircraft, on the other hand...
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   3/15/2004 10:37:37 PM
I didn't say that fighters have greater detection range than AWACS. When you shoot those anti-AWACS weapons they're passive (with a mid-course update), only switching to active at about 80km (I think) or so. But 300/350km IS approaching the limits of AWACS detection range, and it wouldn't have enough time to vector fighters in to prevent the Flankers loosing of their missiles. As to the R-77 vs AIM-120, the early R-77s significantly outrange the AIM-120A/B, whereas the later models (the newer ramjet/rocket hybrid) would give a C-7 model AMRAAM a serious run for its money.
 
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JJFS    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   3/20/2004 8:23:05 PM
"I didn't say that fighters have greater detection range than AWACS. When you shoot those anti-AWACS weapons they're passive (with a mid-course update), only switching to active at about 80km (I think) or so." The problem with all of this is that the AWACS is going to see the Russian fighters long before the Russian fighters realize that there is an AWACS in the area to fire the R-37 at.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   3/20/2004 11:11:09 PM
This missile is NOT the R-37. I've seen it in "World Aircraft Information Files" in between the engines of a Su-35/37, and it had a length about DOUBLE that of the R-27ER. I think it was only slightly smaller than the Kh-41. This missile is colossal. And I disagree with the fact that the AWACS is going to detect the Flankers while they're WAY out of range. They have quite a comprehensive RWR/EW suite, and the N-011 should be able to pick up a transmitting target like an E-3 from at least 200km (hell, the N-001 can detect an A-50 from about 170km and track at about 150km). The Flankers are firing the missiles "cold" at the AWACS. The missiles are homing in on the AWACS and do not rely on the support of the Flanker post-launch, but it does (I think) have a mid-course update facility before it goes active.
 
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gf0012-aust    Engagement distances   3/20/2004 11:25:51 PM
am I missing something here? How can an E3 with a nominal detection range of 450k's be jumped by a SU-3x or Mig-29 with onboard detection of sub 200k's? Assuming that the E3 has sniffed the OPFOR at 450k's and is turning away, do the maths. The OPFOR shoots and scoots, the E3 is strategically withdrawing and heading off in the other direction at Mach .8 Whats the closing speed of the missile and the egressing E3? That also assumes that the E3 has not been able to vector its escorts to pursue the OPFOR jet or have a shot at intercepting the incoming missile.. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the detection advantage lies with the E3 - not an onboard fighter borne system.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Engagement distances   3/21/2004 7:08:26 PM
Okay, I'll search around for an internet source for this missile, 'coz I've seen it under a Su-35/37 in "World Aircraft Information Files", but I can't post it here :( I've said this a dozen times, when you fire the missile you (the Flanker pilot) DON'T have lock. You aren't tracking the AWACS. But you ARE aware of its presence by way of your on-board RWR (these are quite comprehensive on the Su-35/37) This missile would have a ballistic range of at least 250km (more like 300-350km, and it is available with a range-extending booster rocket). If you're tracking that poor E-3 passively then you'd get a chance for a shot from a significantly greater range than if you were tracking him (kinda like shooting a Kh-31P or an AGM-88). I'd think 300km isn't an unlikely engagement envelope, particulary for the extended-range version, as then you'd get a weapons solution earlier. The AWACS would indeed be aware of the presence of the OPFOR Flankers, but by using its radar it would act like a homing beacon. If it has a positive ID at 450km but the Flankers have a solution at 300km then the E-3 would be very hard pressed to vector in escorts in time to prevent the Su-37s from launching their first salvo, and things would look even bleaker for the E-3 if it is attacked from two or more sides. The OPFOR would need a little skill/proficiency, particularly when it comes to C&C, but if you properly employ these tactics you'd have one smokin' Sentry.
 
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JJFS    RE:Standard Block IV-Standard Block IVA-ERAM - Su-25   3/21/2004 8:30:12 PM
"This missile is NOT the R-37. I've seen it in "World Aircraft Information Files" in between the engines of a Su-35/37, and it had a length about DOUBLE that of the R-27ER. I think it was only slightly smaller than the Kh-41. This missile is colossal." My mistake then, do you know what it's called? Is this information available? "And I disagree with the fact that the AWACS is going to detect the Flankers while they're WAY out of range. They have quite a comprehensive RWR/EW suite, and the N-011 should be able to pick up a transmitting target like an E-3 from at least 200km (hell, the N-001 can detect an A-50 from about 170km and track at about 150km)." So? E-3s have at least a detection range of twice that. This 300 kilometer missile isn't going to be very useful on Flankers flying CAP, because the AWACS will see them first every time, and thus, vector in fighters to deal with them. I think there is certainly potential for an anti-AWACS missile, but not without ground support, friendly AWACS support, or blind luck.
 
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