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Subject: The end of Rapier and RAF Regiment AD.
Biffa    9/17/2004 3:40:16 PM
I recently learnt that the RAF Regiment will be soon disbanding its Rapier squadrons. WHY?.It is not long since we have updated to FSC and tests clearly show that Rapier is one of the most accurate and reliable short range air defence missile platforms in the world.What will hapen to the personel?, 15SQRN, 16SQRN, 26 and 37SQRN plus all the training units?. will the army take over airfield defence with its mobile units?. if so will it be as effective, as to my knowledge mobile Rapier dosent have a blind fire capability. any thoughts? ps i am a posting virgin, be gentle.
 
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french stratege    Ruke Britannia/Aussiegunner    12/14/2004 5:37:46 AM
Uk have no equivalent of antirunway French Apache. Brimstone use singe warhead and not antirunway ammunition.BTW Brimstone is a UK derivative of Scalp and not reverse (even if British procured it first). "because teaching somebody to handle the most powerful weapons systems in the world involves trust, not a big feature in Arab dictatorships or Communist State's. " Like in WW2 Germany maybe? Or in a lower level we could mention north korea in 1951 and vietnam when Russian gave advice and their state of art weapons. Stupid argument: it is not dictatorship which is unefficient , it is communism or in the case of arabs states, islam, corruption and underdevelopment. Syrian had never procured even in 73, top Russian weapons and in 1982 their systems were still from 73.Russian sold all the time the n-1 generation of weapon or export downgraded systems. If Syria had got many anti SEAD decoys and passive tracking system, as much as a numerical networked airdefense, how could Israeli have perfomed SEAD missions? History of fighting with arabs states is irelevant to get lessons for the future.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Ruke Britannia/Aussiegunner    12/14/2004 6:13:38 AM
"Uk have no equivalent of antirunway French Apache. Brimstone use singe warhead and not antirunway ammunition.BTW Brimstone is a UK derivative of Scalp and not reverse (even if British procured it first)." Read his post again and you will see that he was talking about Storm Shadow, not Brimstone you D1ckhead! Fair point on German and Russian pilots, though rigid command structures does historically seem to be more common in more authoratarian countries.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Ruke Britannia/Aussiegunner    12/14/2004 6:14:29 AM
"Uk have no equivalent of antirunway French Apache. Brimstone use singe warhead and not antirunway ammunition.BTW Brimstone is a UK derivative of Scalp and not reverse (even if British procured it first)." Read his post again and you will see that he was talking about Storm Shadow, not Brimstone you D1ckhead! Fair point on German and Russian pilots though. You could also say that US pilots in Vietnam had a very rigid, inadequate command structure, so I retract that part of my argument.
 
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french stratege    Aussiegunner it was a confusion of name only   12/14/2004 7:02:38 AM
Sorry it was Storm Shadow and not Brimstone(Brimstone is air-launched anti-armour missile and of course not a derivative of Apache), but it doesn't change anything as Storm shadow is a single concrete piercing charge.UK have no missile dedicated to antirunway.
 
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Rule Britannia    RE:Ruke Britannia/Aussiegunner    12/14/2004 9:11:15 AM
The Storm Shadow is a missile that can be used against a number of hardened targets, including runways. To enhance its capabilities in this role, a newly developed warhead precursor is fitted, BROACH (Bomb Royal Ordnance Augmenting CHarge). This is a multi-warhead system that combines an initial penetrator charge (warhead) with a secondary follow-through bomb, supported by multi-event hard target fusing. This enables it to penetrate hardened targets and effect a wide blast radius by combusting within the target, i.e. the runway foundations, causing the maximum amount of structural damage. Incidentally, the system that the French have no equivalent of at all, the Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise Missile, is equipped with both a 1000lb HE charge or conventional submunitions dispenser with combined effect bomblets. And the system is not French developed, it was developed by Matra-BAE Dynamics and The British requirement for an air launched stand off missile was under consideration for many years. A number of successive administrations deliberated not only on the type and specification required but also what fundamental role it was to have, i.e. nuclear or conventional strike. That final question was answered in the early 1990's with the end of the Cold War, resulting in the launch of SR(A)-1236 for a Conventionally Armed Stand Off Missile, CASOM. The subsequent contract was finally awarded in February 1997 to Matra-BAE Dynamics after an international competition involving several different missiles including the European TAURUS, an advanced Israeli Popeye and U.S. Tomahawk variant. Following the British selection of Storm Shadow, France selected a system based heavily on its design called SCALP-EG also from BAE Dynamics and Matra. This followed the 1996 merger between British Aerospace Dynamics and Matra Defence. This resulted in the two projects, Storm Shadow and SCALP EG being combined under a single project team. The two systems are now virtually the same missile with a commonality approaching 99%.
 
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french stratege    casom   12/14/2004 4:02:06 PM
"And the system is not French developed" A joke I guess: French funding initially, design offices in France even for components.The only thing UK did is probably to paint a british flag on the missile! http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/dga/enjeux/les_programmes_d_armement/systemes_des_forces/la_frappe_dans_la_profondeur/missile_air-sol_apache_et_sclap-eg/presentation_du_missile_scalp http://www.global-defence.com/2002/missile-longrang.html "The UK is buying around 900 Stormshadow air-launched cruise missiles.Based on the French Scalp EG, it is proving to be highly capable. "
 
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french stratege    NATO in Bosnia   12/14/2004 4:22:43 PM
 
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Rule Britannia    RE:casom   12/15/2004 9:14:05 AM
I find the notion that the Storm Shadow is based on the SCALP-EG rather misleading considering the Storm Shadow existed before the SCALP-EG. The Storm Shadow is based on Apache, not the SCALP-EG which were largely developed in tandem. “The system is based on the flight-proven French Apache air vehicle and is optimised to meet UK requirements.” “Following the British selection of Storm Shadow, France selected a system based heavily on its design called SCALP-EG also from BAE Dynamics and Matra. This followed the 1996 merger between British Aerospace Dynamics and Matra Defence. This resulted in the two projects, Storm Shadow and SCALP-EG being combined under a single project team. The two systems are now virtually the same missile with a commonality approaching 99%.” http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/common/AG/ss.html According to the Manufacturer themselves, “STORM SHADOW is currently being developed as part of a £700 million contract placed by the UK Ministry of Defence in February 1997. The French Ministry of Defence issued a development and series production contract for the SCALP-EG in December 1997.” http://www.mbda.net/escalp.html Now the notion that it is an indigenous French design and manufactured in France is also misleading as MBDA (the manufacturer of the missile) is British majority owned, headquartered in London and it’s principal production facility is in Lostock, in Lancashire. http://www.mbda.net/erepap.html
 
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french stratege    RE:casom   12/16/2004 7:15:20 AM
Apache, Storm shadow and scalp eg are entirely designed and produce in France.The fact that the UK MOD ordered 6 month earlier a production batch before France doesn't change anything. I gave you the french link which prove it : http://www.senat.fr/rap/a02-071-7/a02-071-712.html "Le missile Scalp, qui en est dérivé, est, lui, un missile à charge unique. Ils sont fabriqués par Matra Bae Dynamics France" http://www.mbda.net/escalp0006.html Engines are also produced in france: magazine/3/snecma_1403_18a19.pdf
 
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Rule Britannia    RE:casom   12/16/2004 12:57:43 PM
Why are you being so petty, all this crap about painting a Union Jack on the side? Your link proves nothing. Storm Shadow and SCALP-EG are two separate missiles however closely related. From what I could decipher, it states that the SCALP (note not Storm Shadow) is manufactured in France and if I can draw your attention to another part of the article, “Ce missile de croisière est développé en coopération avec la Grande-Bretagne (STORM SHADOW) et sera exporté vers les Emirats Arabes Unis (BLACK SHAHEEN), l'Italie et la Grèce.” Why would they make that differentiation between the two? If it was exclusively manufactured in France, surely it would be exported to the UK as well… The missiles are developed by MBDA (Matra BAE Dynamics no longer exists) and I am willing to bet that SCALP is produced in France and the Storm Shadow in Britain. This tends to be backed-up by this link: “The contract for the development and production of Storm Shadow was placed with Matra BAE Dynamics (UK) Ltd in February 1997 after a competitive tender exercise. This was one of the first contracts to be placed with this contractor. Matra BAE Dynamics (UK) Ltd is a subsidiary of Matra BAE Dynamics SAS, a company jointly owned by BAE plc and Lagardere SCA. Matra BAE Dynamics (France) Ltd has won the SCALP-EG contract from the French Government.” http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/casom.htm About the Engines, the production of the Storm Shadow’s engines, involves Microturbo Ltd in Hampshire.
 
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