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Subject: Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons
EW3    9/26/2005 1:01:44 PM
Taiwan to boost submarine force: Jane's Taiwan plans to equip its two Dutch-built submarines with Harpoon anti-ship missiles that could be used to attack key Chinese naval bases, Jane's Defence Weekly says. If all goes smoothly, the two Sea Dragon diesel electric submarines would be armed with UGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles, the defence weekly said in an article to be published Wednesday. It said the US navy had awarded McDonnell Douglas Corp, a Boeing subsidiary, a contract to coordinate and execute an on-site survey of the submarines for this purpose. Submarine-launched Harpoons are pre-loaded into a capsule and launched from a torpedo tube. The capsule rises to the surface and launches the missile. "If Taiwan procures the Block 2 Harpoons with coastal target suppression, Taiwan's submarines will have the capability of attacking coastal, in-harbour and land targets," Jane's said. "This will place China's key naval bases of Shantou, Xiamen, Sandu, Xiazhen, Shanghai and Zhoushan in Taiwan's crosshairs," it said The Harpoon missile deal, following Russia's sale of Kh-41 anti-ship missiles to China, was part of a 2001 US arms package. Taiwan's military-run Chung Shan Institute of Science and Technology had been working unsuccessfully on a submarine-launched version of its Hsiung Feng anti-ship missile, the journal said. Taiwan already has air and ship-launched Harpoons. China has repeatedly threatened to invade Taiwan should the island declare formal independence, prompting Taiwan to seek more advanced weaponry to defend itself. The United States has been the leading arms supplier to Taiwan despite Washington's switching of diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979. Relations between China and Taiwan, which split in 1949 at the end of a civil war, have worsened since independence-leaning Chen Shui-bian was elected president in 2000. He was re-elected last year. from: link
 
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YelliChink    RE:Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons   9/26/2005 2:24:17 PM
T_T When will we have more subs?
 
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EW3    RE:Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons   9/26/2005 2:30:41 PM
I didn't think more subs were funded. Till you get them, this at least gives your subs a standoff capability, and the Chinese something else to worry about.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons   9/27/2005 1:07:18 AM
How is Taiwan's ability to build UWVs?
 
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YelliChink    RE:Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons -Nan   9/27/2005 11:43:21 AM
We can only build WW2 grade subs. Something like the one that lays in Chicago. And we don't have the ability to build sub weaponery except mines. The primary reason is the lack of guts so that most people don't want to put money and research capacity in such a supposedly high risk investment, unless the US DoD is willing to allow our technicians and scientists to go to the Electric Boat Co and study sub-bulding know-how. But the only thing that I can't understand is that how could you know the tricks to build a working sub without fail many times? Yes, but also very unfortunate, the ONLY THING that prevents us from building a working sub is OURSELVES.
 
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EW3    RE:Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons - YC   9/27/2005 2:07:02 PM
From a tactical viewpoint, since Taiwan is on defense, I'd spend my limited resources on anti-ship missiles and SAMs. Subs don't buy you as much defense per dollar. Figure a small sub will only have a modest number of weapons say around 25. For the cost of the sub around $200 million, you can buy about 400 ASMs. If you make them mobile, you have a lot of protection, all around the island. Also consider that at best you can keep only 50% of your subs at sea at any time, whereas your mobile ASMs can be prepositioned so that they are effectively always ready to go.
 
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doggtag    RE:Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons - YC   9/27/2005 8:59:39 PM
I tend to agree with EW3 on this one: 400 mobile, concealable ASMs is a much more effective deterrent per dollar for a small nation primarily on the defensive. If Taiwan really wants a credible surface fleet, I would almost suggest an armed merchant fleet like the British had in WW2: standard merchant marine vessels flying under whichever given registry, yet with a combat crew complement and hidden weapons. As for small subs, what about a scaled-up version of this, armed with multiple external ASW-sized torps or a pair or two of Mk48-sized weapons? It could be cheap, you could make quite a few more than you could larger SSK-sized boats (Scorpene or U214-sized). link link Shades of James Bond's Octop*ssy, they could be recovered through the internal wet wells of large freighters. Their capabiliy for element of surprise is obvious. Modern manufacturing know-how should be able to make them quite undetectable: quiet motors and composite hulls. In a defensive role, they could prove very effective lying in wait of approaching transports and other amphibious vessels. But of course, the capability for covert offense is obvious, especially with your innocent-looking transport mothership taking you in range unnoticed of your adversary's coastline. I still think many mobile ASM/SSM launchers is more feasible (least R&D), but there are not a lot of effective anti-torpedo countermeasures in most navies, not as much as there are effective anti-missile CIWS and ECM. Certainly Taiwan's greatest deterrent would be found in constructing a massive defensive ability. But even a small number of systems which have obvious potential for surprise offensive strike certainly adds credibility to their forces. In any given invasion scenario, there most likely will be scores of smaller vessels intended to deplete the Taiwan self defense forces of their valuable Harpoons. I would suggest procuring additional smaller anti-ship weapons, like mobile shore batteries of Hellfires and/or Sea Skuas. A change in doctrine, allotting which weapons are used against which targets, would save the larger and more lethal Harpoons for the valuable larger vessels, and use the smaller ASMs for landing craft and trawler-sized troop transports. The best thing I would recommend for Taiwan, or any nation concerned with a sea invasion, would be to develop very effective concealment techniques for your military hardware, such as utilizing vehicles which resemble standard commercial trucks carrying your military might anywhere in the country unnoticed. A standard cargo semi trailer carrying a concealed 4-round Harpoon ASM launcher is a lot less suspicious if it has the name of a national trucking company or supermarket chain painted on its side rather than the words "Ministry of Defence" and painted camo-green. And who really can tell the difference between a generator mounted on a semi trailer which is designed to refridgerate produce or meat, or power a fire control system mounted inside? The only chance Taiwan has of surviving the initial attack is for the PLA to not be able to accurately identify all of Taiwan's military assets up until the last second before they are fired upon. Instead of spending billions on a larger surface fleet, Taiwan instead should follow Swedish doctrine: use a lot of smaller FAC naval vessels, but concentrate primarily on a very large and capable defensive land network, incoporating everything from their few large air defence surveillance radars, commercial airport traffic control tie-ins, all networked together with everything down to local ADA search systems. The US has the right idea about network centric warfare, where you have a total virtual battlespace environment that electronically replicates everything going on in your operating environment (360, 24/7/365), and collectively distributing tactical data to where it is needed most. With just such a system, Taiwan could easily separate the commercial sea and air traffic from invasion vehicles, and command the proper assets to eliminate them. All the guns and missiles in the world, defensively or offensively configured, mean nothing without adequate C3I. Maybe Taiwan needs to implement its own IT battalions, recruiting every computer geek they can find that is sympathetic to Taiwanese independence. Society is becoming more electronically oriented (and dependent). In any future war, the nation with the most capable computer geeks will win! If china keeps censoring its best and brightest, those geeks may be the ones who topple the chinese system from the inside, recognizing that the only real threat to chinese heritage, culture, and divine right is not Taiwan independence, but rather china's current ruling party. The mainland chinese government has put up their information-blocking internet protocols, just as pre-WW2 Germany went on its book-burning crusades.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:Taiwan to arm submarine force with Harpoons - YC   9/27/2005 9:25:21 PM
If those Harpoons had low yield nuke warheads then they would be a much more potent deterrent.
 
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