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Subject: List of PLA Victories!
HanWuDi    1/1/2005 4:10:11 PM
WWII: PLA forces waged a war of attrition upon the Japanese Army in Manchuria and Northern China. This conflict concluded with over 800,000 Japanese KIA and over 1,000,000 wounded. Along with the Nationalists in the south, the combined forces eventually stopped the Japanese advance and regained China proper. Of the 4 million Japanese troops(80% of the entire Japanese military) who invaded China, three million went home in body bags or as cripples. Just in terms of military body count, China inflicted 3 times as many Japanses casualties as the rest of the Allies COMBINED. Chinese Civil War: The PLA defeats a better equipped KMT army that was many times it's own size. And siezes control of the entire country. Korean War: PLA preserved the soverignty of North Korea against U.S forces. American forces set out to unify the two Koreas under the puppet government of the south, but instead had the longest single retreat in it's entire military history. Contrary to popular(US) opinions, the PLA never had any designs on South Korea, the point of the entire war was to keep North Korea as a buffer zone between U.S forces and China's industrial heartland of the north. From a military standpoint the casualties were fairly even, 500,000 Chinese KIA for 450,000 US/UN KIA. From a strategic point of view, China succeded in it's main objective while the U.S did not, thus China won. Invasion of Tibet: The PLA invaded and conquored a country the size of Western Europe in 16 days. Sino-Indian War: Chinese forces stormed Indian strongholds across the Himalayas in a series of lightening raids. The conclusion of the war allowed China to annex a piece of Indian Territory as large as the entire Korean Peninsula. From a military standpoint, the war was brilliantly executed. Over 15,000 Indians killed and 60,000 captured versus 300 Chinese casualties. Paracel Conflict: The PLA engaged in naval warfare with the south Vietnamese in the Paracel archipelago. After a initial setback, the PLA troops stormed the main islands with the help of naval bombardment and close air support with J-7s and took over the entire archipelago. In terms of Casualties: South Vietnam had over 500 KIA, while China suffered a total of 72 KIA. Sino-Vietnamese War: The PLA's most painful war. The initial 3-week invasion was a disaster costing the lives of 20,000 PLA troops. But the decision was made to fight a long term war of attrition against Vietnam, and the war lasted for 10 years. Finally, the cost of war became too heavy for Vietnam's economy to bear. It's national infrastructure collapsed, and the agrarian economy could no longer feed it's army. Vietnam capitulated after a decade of hard fighting. Thus, China annexed the entire northern Vietnamese border region(2500 sq kms) and gained the client states of Laos and Cambodia. Vietnam, once with the most powerful military in southeast asia, is not reduced to an improverished nation with a hollow force of an army. Conclusion: The PLA has won EVERY, SINGLE war that it has ever fought. Lesson of the day: Nobody messes with the PLA and gets away from it.
 
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052C    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/1/2005 4:28:14 PM
Chinese Civil War: The PLA defeats a better equipped KMT army that was many times it's own size. And siezes control of the entire country. ==ccp win this war,but Chinese fail it. It just a disaster. Korean War: PLA preserved the soverignty of North Korea against U.S forces. American forces set out to unify the two Koreas under the puppet government of the south, but instead had the longest single retreat in it's entire military history. Contrary to popular(US) opinions, the PLA never had any designs on South Korea, the point of the entire war was to keep North Korea as a buffer zone between U.S forces and China's industrial heartland of the north. From a military standpoint the casualties were fairly even, 500,000 Chinese KIA for 450,000 US/UN KIA. From a strategic point of view, China succeded in it's main objective while the U.S did not, thus China won. ==I think it is just a dogfall.
 
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HanWuDi    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/1/2005 4:40:26 PM
"ccp win this war,but Chinese fail it. It just a disaster." Agreed. "I think it is just a dogfall" Still, far better than having American military bases at China's borders.
 
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paganini    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/1/2005 5:15:50 PM
I wouldn't gloat on INdian victory. India really doesn't have much of a miliary at that part. But it's OK. PLA is good at land wars, but the problem with Taiwan is that it's a NAVAL/AIR/LAND combined operationhs, where the PLA is still far behind. I woudln't gloat on Tibet either -- wasn't 4000 PLA killed by a rebellion in Tibet prior to Mao sending in the whole army to crush them? The Korean war, yes -- but that's only because McArthur didn't bomb northern China's military industrial complexes :) but still, it was a victory for China because they used crappy weapons and still defeated their foes. Though, strategically i'll give China the edge -- economic ties, economic woes for US if US gets involved, mobile missles that US won't be able to find and a weak taiwan leadership.
 
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paganini    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/1/2005 5:17:04 PM
I will also agree with China victory over Vietnam -- without China there, after the withdraw of Americans, Vietnam would have swept across Southeast Asia and threaten Thailand directly.
 
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Ehran    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/1/2005 5:40:44 PM
in ww2 you claim 3000000 japs went home in bags or as cripples yet you list 800,000 kia and over a million wounded a line or two earlier. care to explain the million some discrepancy. in the civil war it should be noted the kmt was anything but united and devoted much of its energy to squabbling and open warfare amongst its own ranks. had they presented a truly united front mao very possibly wouldn't have succeeded. in korea while the prc did rather well at first if they weren't trying to do anything more than preserve north korea as a buffer zone why did they drive so far south of the sk border? it would almost certainly have been simpler to stop at the sk border and go to the UN offering a cease fire and negotiations. would have looked good in the press and cut the legs out from under the UN forces big time. would also have left the chinese army with a much better pr position having just handed the americans their butts and not yet having their own shortcomings exposed. but alas they thought they could take sk and history unfolded as it did. err did tibet even have an army to fight when it was invaded? pretty much just a case of rolling in and running up the flag in which case 16 days to do it isn't exactly something to boast about. unseemly chest beating does not equal rightful pride in accomplishments past or present.
 
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HanWuDi    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/1/2005 8:34:02 PM
"in ww2 you claim 3000000 japs went home in bags or as cripples yet you list 800,000 kia and over a million wounded a line or two earlier. care to explain the million some discrepancy." The 800K figure was just for the CCP alone, the KMT accounted for another million japanese KIA in the south. "in the civil war it should be noted the kmt was anything but united and devoted much of its energy to squabbling and open warfare amongst its own ranks. had they presented a truly united front mao very possibly wouldn't have succeeded." The fact that he succeeded at all is pretty amazing...given the odds against the PLA. The KMT army nwasn't divided, it simply didn't have the morale of the PLA. In the civil war, morale was the deciding factor, not numbers or technology. "in korea while the prc did rather well at first if they weren't trying to do anything more than preserve north korea as a buffer zone why did they drive so far south of the sk border?" The Chinese advanced less than 30 km into SK and then stopped(just after taking Seoul). The PLA certainly didn't have any intention of conquoring the whole of Korea or of uniting Korea under the north. As for the U.N....you do realize that the UN didn't even recognize the current government of China at the time. That's makes it kinda hard to hand them a ceasefire "err did tibet even have an army to fight when it was invaded? pretty much just a case of rolling in and running up the flag in which case 16 days to do it isn't exactly something to boast about." Tibet had an army of about 35,000 men. Needless to say, that army was wiped out entirely within one battle. I don't seem to remember any significant Chinese losses in that invasion.
 
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Kadyet    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/1/2005 9:57:40 PM
>>WWII: PLA forces waged a war of attrition upon the Japanese Army in Manchuria and Northern China. This conflict concluded with over 800,000 Japanese KIA and over 1,000,000 wounded. Along with the Nationalists in the south, the combined forces eventually stopped the Japanese advance and regained China proper. Of the 4 million Japanese troops(80% of the entire Japanese military) who invaded China, three million went home in body bags or as cripples. Just in terms of military body count, China inflicted 3 times as many Japanses casualties as the rest of the Allies COMBINED. << Not true. The Japanese suffered 1.1 million casualties overall in China. Chinese forces lost 3.2 million soldiers and an additional 17.5 million civilians. The only reason the Chinese "won" was because the US Navy destroyed the IJN and strangled the Home Islands before nuking Japan. link >>Chinese Civil War: The PLA defeats a better equipped KMT army that was many times it's own size. And siezes control of the entire country. << Because the entire nation was screwed over after the end of the war, with rampant hyperinflation. Any government is going to have a hard time under such circumstances. >>Korean War: PLA preserved the soverignty of North Korea against U.S forces. American forces set out to unify the two Koreas under the puppet government of the south, but instead had the longest single retreat in it's entire military history. Contrary to popular(US) opinions, the PLA never had any designs on South Korea, the point of the entire war was to keep North Korea as a buffer zone between U.S forces and China's industrial heartland of the north. From a military standpoint the casualties were fairly even, 500,000 Chinese KIA for 450,000 US/UN KIA. From a strategic point of view, China succeded in it's main objective while the U.S did not, thus China won. << 1. Most of those casualties were incurred by a poorly equipped and trained SK army. 2. Congrats. The PLA took 10 times the casualty levels that the poorly trained Army did. Not a ringing endorsement of the PLA. 3. The strategic aim was to keep South Korea free. The hope that Korea would be reunited was unfortunately not met, but it was not the strategic goal of the war. >>Invasion of Tibet: The PLA invaded and conquored a country the size of Western Europe in 16 days. << Tibet had an army of 5,000. The LAPD could have beaten them. >>Sino-Indian War: Chinese forces stormed Indian strongholds across the Himalayas in a series of lightening raids. The conclusion of the war allowed China to annex a piece of Indian Territory as large as the entire Korean Peninsula. From a military standpoint, the war was brilliantly executed. Over 15,000 Indians killed and 60,000 captured versus 300 Chinese casualties.<< A war against an inferior army in a poor position with a bad logistics ability. >>Paracel Conflict: The PLA engaged in naval warfare with the south Vietnamese in the Paracel archipelago. After a initial setback, the PLA troops stormed the main islands with the help of naval bombardment and close air support with J-7s and took over the entire archipelago. In terms of Casualties: South Vietnam had over 500 KIA, while China suffered a total of 72 KIA.<< And just what sort of navy did South Vietnam have at the time? >>Sino-Vietnamese War<< Congrats. You beat up on a smaller nation. >>Conclusion: The PLA has won EVERY, SINGLE war that it has ever fought.<< How about the border war with the Soviets? Didn't quite win that one. And claiming WWII as a PLA win rather than a "PLA survived" is a nonsensical reach..
 
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HanWuDi    Kadyet's nonsensical statements   1/2/2005 4:15:31 AM
"And claiming WWII as a PLA win rather than a "PLA survived" is a nonsensical reach." In WWII, Chinese forces (PLA and KMT) destroyed 75% of the invading army of Japan, this is fact. They took back China proper from the japanese occupation forces months before Japan's surrender, that is also fact. The PLA had pushed the Japanese all the way into Manchuria, while the KMT was deep in Burma. The strategic objective of the Chinese nation was to not be conquored by Japan, and that objective was acheived at an enormous cost. You say that the PLA cannot claim victory just because it survived with it's territory intact? Then I guess the U.S can't claim that it won the revolutionary war either, after all, the American government merely "survived" the british onslaught. " The strategic aim was to keep South Korea free. The hope that Korea would be reunited was unfortunately not met, but it was not the strategic goal of the war." The inchon landing was specifically devised to engulf the north korean army, destroy it, and thus pave the way for the invasion of north Korea. I guess American GI's marched and fought 500 kms to the Yalu just because of "hope"? Or was it part of the grand strategy of McArthur? If America had merely wanted to keep South Korea free, the Inchon landing would've been a strategic liability and the later invasion into N.K would've been completely unnecessary. Yet it was still done, thus we can conclude that the American objective upon it's entry into the Korean war was to unify Korea under the government of the South.(Kadyet's nonsense aside) "How about the border war with the Soviets? Didn't quite win that one." No one is sure of whether a war was even fought in this case. The only documented "skirmish" occured on a 300 meter long sandbar in the middle of a frozen river between around 100 Russian and Chinese Soldiers on border patrol. The result was 31 dead Russians and 47 dead Chinese soldiers. It wasn't even an organized battle ,much less a war. As far as gossip goes there are two varients of the story. 1. After the initial skirmish, the PLA is pushed back,then the PLA mounts a massive human wave attack on the island. The Russians counter with a massive artillery/rocket barrage until the entire "island" was destroyed, causing around 700 PLA casualties. 2. The Russians were driven off in the initial skirmish, and the PLA, fearing an armored counterattack, planted one of their nuclear landmines(low yield <1 kiloton) on the island. The soviets counter attack with a battalion of tanks and sets off the mine,and destroys themselves alone with the entire island. Either way, the island where the "battle" supposedly took place is nowhere to be found today.
 
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elcid    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/2/2005 5:54:35 AM
HanWuDi - you are giving BLUEMOON a run for his money in using fiction as statistics. In ten years of war - 1935 to 1945 - Imperial Japan lost a total of 600,000 military men - in all services - on all fronts. Further, China during that period was not considered to include China of previous or present dimensions, and China itself did not claim to rule Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, and several other territories. The Japanese troops in Manchukuo were much more concerned with Russian forces than with Chinese forces. It is probably not proper to consider these troops as invading China at all. The "invasions" of China are those Japanese operations made from the sea or from Manchuria, and involve a remarkably small fraction of Japanese forces. One of the reasons China survived, and Japan had no realistic hope of winning, no matter what its forces acheived, was that Japan could not hope to put enough troops into the field to win a military victory. Also, you omit completely that Japan was able to raise quite remarkablely large armies in China, and to gain cooperation from other Chinese military factions. From 1933 to 1937 Japan nibbled at Warlordies until it controlled all the land from the Great Wall to Mongolia, all without meaningful opposition from Nationalist or Communist regulars (but the Reds did wage guerilla war). KMT had 200 divisions at this time - more than Japan ever had (by 1945 Japan got about 150 divisions). In 1936 a warlord arrested Chiang - a sign of how fickle it was to trust them. Many people, including me, think WWII really began on July 7, 1937 with the "incident at the Marco Polo bridge" - an incident that may have been a mistake and may have involved unknown provocteurs (I suspect Russians). Japan was clearly caught off guard, unlikely if they had really planned the incident. But it led to the fall of Tientsin on July 30. Nine days later Peking fell. In August two divisions landed near Shanghai. More invasions were fought against both ROC and CCP armies, and both lost ground to the invaders, in spite of greatly outnumbering them. After losing 270,000 men in its defense, Shanghai was ordered abandoned by Chiang in November. [The Japanese needed only seven divisons - less than 100,000 men - to do this - not a great moment for China's arms]. In all of China Japan had only 15 divisions a this time. So the combination of ROC and Red armies was not a great strain for Japan at this time. The war continued at a very slow pace for years, and even the US declaration of hostilities in 1942 did not lead to significant heavy fighting. Japan could have launched a serious offensive with a large force at any time. This is proven by events in 1945, when Japan did just that, to get B-29 bases built at great losgistical expense - and got them every one. Chinese armies were simply not competative with Japanese, even with significant Russian and American aid, and even with Reds and Nationalists and some Warlords in alliance against Japan. A total of 13.5 million Chinese died in the struggle. Of these, 1.4 million were ROC troops. Imperial Japanese casualties in China are "more accurately known, at 388,600" {World War Two Nation by Nation.
 
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elcid    RE:List of PLA Victories!   1/2/2005 5:58:24 AM
On the invasion of Tibet, PLA was operating on a shoestring. There was only one meaningful line of communication. There was only one significant defense of that line of communication. The CCP had secretly cut a deal with the Defense Minister of Tibet, and he committed treason, personally destroying the munitions of the defenders of the strategic pass. In exchange, he was made head of state of the "province." I would not be proud of this sort of behavior.
 
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