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Subject: Has really the era of BVR arrive?
Terrex    10/18/2004 1:30:45 AM
During the vietnam war,US air force predicted dogfight was useless and not neccessary.BVR is the new hip with their semi-guided Sparrow air to air missile reign,then after a few incident of mis-hit of friendly aircraft.US air force change ROE requiring their pilot to identify the aircraft before shooting! Sparrow becomes useless and Sidewinder becomes the main weapon but sidewinder still cannot replace machine gun in some v close situation. But with recent,emphasize of BVR weapon and using advance technology of identifying foe or friend.Is dogfight outdated? So enemy aircraft once detected on radar,they just lock on and shoot?
 
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DropBear    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 10:30:30 AM
I believe the term "generation" was derived from a combination of aircraft design planform and historical development of avionics architecture(?). If this is the case, then Eurofighter Typhoon is in the same class as other Euro Canards and SuperBug etc.
 
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Galderio    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 10:35:33 AM
"I don't really think you can place the Eurofighter in the 4th generation." Yes, in fact it is 5th generation aircraft, but is not so revolutionary like the Raptor.
 
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DropBear    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 10:36:14 AM
There is also a difference between classifying "jet" fighters and fighters in general. If you look at Jet fighters and aircraft, the Korean War 1950 era are gen1, Nam and 60-70s are gen2, Teen Series of the 80-early90s are gen3, late 90s Euro Canards are gen4 and post 20th Century - Stealth embodiment is gen5. However, there are about 7-8 generations of fighters, including WW1 and WW2. I think the lines are hazy and somewhat difficult to pin down exactly what evolution/generation the Typhoon, for example, may belong.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 11:41:25 AM
If the Typhoon had entered service on time, I think Gen 4 is realistic, however due to its redesigning to include stealth features and the like, I believe it best to be called gen 5.
 
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Galderio    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 12:20:32 PM
The machanics and the internal arquiteture are also important to define what generatition each figther belongs.
 
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Terrex    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 12:27:16 PM
Maybe Euro r 4 and the 1/2 generation! ???
 
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Yimmy    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 1:04:33 PM
If people start using half generations, next it will be 3/4 generations etc.... there is no point in it. The Typhoon will be in service at the same time as the F35, they are of the same generation..
 
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french stratege    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 4:21:43 PM
I agree.Stealth by itself is not only a distinctive feature for a next generation. The fourth generation include supermanoeuvrability due to instable flight, low probability of detection(by stealthiness and/or CME), situation awareness (human interface, eleectronic scan, sensor fusion plus datalink), high efficiency engine and supersonic flight without reheat. To have a full stealth like F22 or a bigger RCS with top CME like Rafale are only means. I mean if active cancellation works having 0.05 sqm RCS or 0.01 sqm doesn't mean a lot of difference for low probability detection to help the jammer.If you rely only on RCS reduction like F22 or F35 it is a other choice.What matters is PROBABILITY detection! The fith generation for me will include plasma dynamic control, full spectrum stealthiness, stoechiometric combustion engine, active protection and 360% sensor coverage.And possibly no man or at least super artificial intelligence assistance. For me F22 and F35 are fourth generation and F22 the top of fourth generation.
 
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fullamongo    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 4:43:52 PM
Does anyone think that stealth will make bvr obselete? 2 pairs of f-22's backed up with AWACs. The AWACs has picked up a faint radar return and tells his pilots: "There's something out there" "What?" "i don't know but it's fast and i can't get a good fix on it" Same thing happens on the other side. The AWACS vectors their fighters to where they think the enemy is but the fighters are terrified to turn on their own radars, exposing their position and possibly creating an opening for their oponent to launch an anti radiation missile. They are, effectivly, searching in the dark. As far a i can see, their only credible sensor left is their eyeball (and HMS). Am i missing something here? Could the dominance BVR be like the dominance of the machinegun in WW1? to be countered and made infinately less effective (but not obselete)?
 
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french stratege    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 4:52:22 PM
yes you forgot IRST (long range thermal tracker), passive location of radio if used and antistealth radars.And eye ball could be blinded soon by laser!It is why sensorfusion is important!
 
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