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Subject: Has really the era of BVR arrive?
Terrex    10/18/2004 1:30:45 AM
During the vietnam war,US air force predicted dogfight was useless and not neccessary.BVR is the new hip with their semi-guided Sparrow air to air missile reign,then after a few incident of mis-hit of friendly aircraft.US air force change ROE requiring their pilot to identify the aircraft before shooting! Sparrow becomes useless and Sidewinder becomes the main weapon but sidewinder still cannot replace machine gun in some v close situation. But with recent,emphasize of BVR weapon and using advance technology of identifying foe or friend.Is dogfight outdated? So enemy aircraft once detected on radar,they just lock on and shoot?
 
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DropBear    RE:Maybe not   10/18/2004 10:36:12 AM
Don't agree with your statement thatmost stealth or non stealth have the same heat signatures. Heat sig reduction is one of the tenets of stealth design! It stands to reason that your RCS and HSR would be complimentary. Your other point on Amraam taking out stealth planes is redundant, as no potential enemy of an Amraam has inherent stealth capabilities. Tracking stealth aircraft and hitting missiles(?) are two separate issues, besides, it comes down to the band or frequency you are using. For example, the F-35 JSF may have frontal aspect RCS to defeat X-band radars, however, a missile may have jammers that can defeat X-band etc and vica versa.
 
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Galderio    RE:Maybe not - DropBear   10/18/2004 11:20:55 AM
Sorry I donīt speak english very well! 1- Yes, the F-117 and the B-2 have low observable engine exaustors, but the F-35 and the Raptor do not(Similar tail configuration of the Eagle). With itīs supercruise capability the F-22 will have higther frontal IR signature than any other fighters at subsonic speeds. 2-The AMRAAMs oponents still donīt have Stealth capabilities, but that will change in 10 years. 3- I was was trying to say that, it will be or could be easier to hit an AMRAAM than the F-35. 4-If you have an eficient ECM system so small protect your missiles, I think you wonīt need a stealth figther.
 
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Galderio    RE:Maybe not - DropBear   10/18/2004 11:20:56 AM
Sorry I donīt speak english very well! 1- Yes, the F-117 and the B-2 have low observable engine exaustors, but the F-35 and the Raptor do not(Similar tail configuration of the Eagle). With itīs supercruise capability the F-22 will have higther frontal IR signature than any other fighters at subsonic speeds. 2-The AMRAAMs oponents still donīt have Stealth capabilities, but that will change in 10 years. 3- I was was trying to say that, it will be or could be easier to hit an AMRAAM than the F-35. 4-If you have an eficient ECM system so small protect your missiles, I think you wonīt need a stealth figther.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Maybe not - DropBear   10/18/2004 1:21:51 PM
"I hear redtop was over-rated and that few Lightning F6 actually carried them?" From what I gather the red-top was a good missile for it's time, having all aspect capability and a very decent range for a short range IR missile of the time. The reason it was not widely used on the Lightning are two fold; firstly the RAF still had large stocks of firestreaks available, and secondly the firestreak had a pointed nose and so was far better for the lightning aerodynamically than the round nose of the red-top.
 
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DropBear    RE:Galderio   10/18/2004 8:33:45 PM
"1- Yes, the F-117 and the B-2 have low observable engine exaustors, but the F-35 and the Raptor do not(Similar tail configuration of the Eagle). With itīs supercruise capability the F-22 will have higther frontal IR signature than any other fighters at subsonic speeds." The Raptor has composite tiling on the internal areas of the exhaust nozzle and it has 2-D thrust vectoring, so again, the Raptor's rear quarter RCS and heat signatures aren't a real issue for IR missiles or SAMs. I don't understand/see the correlation between supercruise functioning and frontal aspect heat signatures, at subsonic speeds????? Do you mean its rear aspect? As it has one of the best faceted nose sections of any 5th generation multirole fighter!! I think you would be extremely lucky if you can intercept/hit and destroy any missile air-to-air, let alone an Amraam, especially the AIM-120C-5 version. "4-If you have an eficient ECM system so small protect your missiles, I think you wonīt need a stealth figther." Two separate doctrinal issues..
 
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Galderio    RE:Galderio   10/19/2004 10:36:29 AM
Sorry my english again. "The Raptor has composite tiling on the internal areas of the exhaust nozzle and it has 2-D thrust vectoring, so again, the Raptor's rear quarter RCS and heat signatures aren't a real issue for IR missiles or SAMs." Is it enough to protect it against IR or IIR missiles? (we are talking about latests missiles) "I don't understand/see the correlation between supercruise functioning and frontal aspect heat signatures, at subsonic speeds????? Do you mean its rear aspect? As it has one of the best faceted nose sections of any 5th generation multirole fighter!!" The raptor would be at supersonic speeds and his enemy would be at subsonic speeds. I mean if you fly faster your frontal surfaces will be more hot(Hotter??),not only the nose but also the wings and airintakes. Remenbering, the raptor would be at high altitudes above the clouds (very clear and cold sky). "I think you would be extremely lucky if you can intercept/hit and destroy any missile air-to-air, let alone an Amraam, especially the AIM-120C-5 version. I do agree. But Russians says they could(let then dream). But if they could destroy your missiles you would loose your BVR capability. 4-If you have an eficient ECM system so small protect your missiles, I think you wonīt need a stealth figther. The stealth exists because You canīt trust in your ECM at shorter ranges. So if you have technology to build an eficient, cheap and small ECM system to put inside your missiles you can also build a bigger and more powerfull ECM to put inside your planes, so you donīt need Stealth planes. More important- We have no doubt the F-22 and the F-35 are much better than 4š generation fighters. But in the near future there will be others aircrafts with the same(not all) qualities of the raptor. So, I think the era of BVR has arrive just for the last generations of figthers.
 
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Terrex    RE:Galderio   10/19/2004 2:12:18 PM
More important- We have no doubt the F-22 and the F-35 are much better than 4š generation fighters. But in the near future there will be others aircrafts with the same(not all) qualities of the raptor. So, I think the era of BVR has arrive just for the last generations of figthers. By Galderio ------------------------------------------------- What do u mean by last generation fighter?
 
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__nobody__    RE:Galderio   10/19/2004 8:02:24 PM
Destroying the incoming missiles isn't an option as you would have to carry your own anti-missile missiles and it probably would only work at long range; you have to detect, track, lock and fire your anti-missile weapon and you don't have time for that at close range. Regarding stealth on the Raptor or JSF I think they are hard to track on radar, but not invisible. Actually I think the heat on high speed question is quite interesting, but only really a problem when fighting other fighters as the ground based SAM all use radar to adquire targets at long range, so the Raptor or JSF would probably detect the fighter with its radar before he had a chance to see the heat signature. When close enough either IR or optical seeker will make out the target. All fighters have some sort of ECM suite, but it will never be perfect. Stealth can be regarded as an ECM suite build into the airframe. Another thing is that these fighters get much of their stealth from keeping the weapons inside, so I would expect a stealth lose whenever they fire or prepare to fire. But then again it might just be too late when you know that a missile is coming your way.
 
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Galderio    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 9:11:55 AM
"What do u mean by last generation fighter?" I was thinking about Flankers, Falcons and Mirages. And I may include the new europeans figthers like Rafale, Gripen and the EF since they are big radar targets in comparation with the Raptor and the F-35.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Galderio-Terrex   10/20/2004 9:32:36 AM
I don't really think you can place the Eurofighter in the 4th generation..
 
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