The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - March 19, 2010




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Has really the era of BVR arrive?
Terrex    10/18/2004 1:30:45 AM
During the vietnam war,US air force predicted dogfight was useless and not neccessary.BVR is the new hip with their semi-guided Sparrow air to air missile reign,then after a few incident of mis-hit of friendly aircraft.US air force change ROE requiring their pilot to identify the aircraft before shooting! Sparrow becomes useless and Sidewinder becomes the main weapon but sidewinder still cannot replace machine gun in some v close situation.

But with recent,emphasize of BVR weapon and using advance technology of identifying foe or friend.Is dogfight outdated? So enemy aircraft once detected on radar,they just lock on and shoot?
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted
Pages: 1 2 3 4   NEXT
USN-MID    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 1:32:35 AM
Majority of GWI kills were BVR with the latest Sparrows.
 
Quote    Reply

Terrex    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 2:08:16 AM
The problem is has most modern airforce solved the problem of identifying friend or foe in BVR range? How abt Israel Air Force way of doing their combat.I heard many of the kill of arab aircraft r by BVR especially the Lebanon 82'
 
Quote    Reply

boris the romanian    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 2:33:27 AM
"Majority of GWI kills were BVR with the latest Sparrows" Even the Iraqis got a BVR kill (F/A-18C shot down by R-40 firing MiG-25). Terrex, dogfighting is definately not outdated. BVR missiles using pulse doppler radar can have the lock broken by a hard turn that will lower the apparent target velocity to less than 100km/h (known as a Cuban Turn). Depending on the range of the initial BVR shot, chances are that the two aircraft might have to close to WVR to finish each other off, so I wouldn't rule WVR out just yet.
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 2:33:31 AM
The issue are the ROE's. If you are in designated airspace and the other areas are open calls - then yes you can probably make an assumption that the closing aircraft isn't one of yours. Technically you can pop an aircraft from hundreds of k's with some current missiles - the issue is always the local ROE's. In somewhere like Lebanon, the risk of a commercial tooling around whilst the rest of the air is hot is highly unlikely - ispo facto, if the meeting aircraft is closing at a speed that doesn't match any civil parameters and known civ aviation conditions - then it would have been safer to shoot. Thats obviously different from someone popping a hostile over metropolitan paris. ;) traffic conditions are likely to be more congested, mixed etc... In a recent incident in Australia, a small commercial broached secure air space, there were Hornets stacked for air cover (as there was a serious event in play and they were airborne and armed for top cover anyway). The pilot was at the stage of being able to fire at his discretion. A "visual" confirmed that it was an idiot private pilot who had not checked air space conditions etc... he could have been popped BVR, the thing that saved him was the pilot electing to double check with WVR. (the order to shoot autonomously was the first time that it's ever been allowed by an australian prime minister)
 
Quote    Reply

boris the romanian    gf0012-aust   10/18/2004 2:34:19 AM
How was Germany?
 
Quote    Reply

DropBear    RE:Aust ROE's   10/18/2004 2:55:27 AM
The Australian Rules require a line of sight mark1 eyeball approach to BVR, yes this is contrary to the definition of BVR, but there you go! The RAAF are world leaders in WVR and will wax all comers! check out "Aviation Week & Space Technology" September 3, 2001. Article - Australian Training Yields Top-Notch Fighter Pilots. Secondly, there are a few misconceptions about use of SPARROW AAM. Firstly, AIM-7 Sparrow was not considered a true BVR when it was designed. It was a SARH AAM with limited beam-riding radar guidance technology. The lack of kills attributed to the weapon were due to a number of reasons. Firstly, you had to keep your target radar "painted" on the enemy. Hard to do when you have a Mig up your six! Secondly, there were missfires, hung ordnance command errors, falty seeker/guidance packs, warhead malfunctions etc etc. Of the 196 recorded Mig kills by USA military aircraft during Vietnam, 55 of the 196 Migs were shot down, solely by use of AIM-7 Sparrow! The majority being early build AIM-7B! Also, the majority of Sparrow kills were by bomb-trucking USAF jets, as opposed to airdefence configured USN Phantoms. ROE's had little to do with scoring kills and more emphasis should be placed on the poor beginnings of the Sparrow. However, this is not to criticise the Sparrow, as Aspide and SkyFlash have been direct development offshoots.
 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy    RE:Aust ROE's   10/18/2004 9:52:46 AM
All this BVR crap is boring as Hell.... can you imagine a Battle of Britain type film where the RAF shoot down the Germans while 80 miles away? Where is the entertainment value?! Lightnings with firestreak and redtop dogfighting with Mig 21's with AA-2... now that would be entertaining. :D.
 
Quote    Reply

DropBear    RE:Aust ROE's   10/18/2004 9:58:35 AM
I hear redtop was over-rated and that few Lightning F6 actually carried them??
 
Quote    Reply

Galderio    Maybe not   10/18/2004 10:06:37 AM
How usefull would be the AMRAAM against Stealth fighters? Short and medium range IR and IIR guided missiles maybe better because most Stealth and nonstealth aircrafts still have nearly the same thermal signature.
 
Quote    Reply

Galderio    RE:Maybe not   10/18/2004 10:13:13 AM
If you can track and hit a Stealth figther why canīt you track and hit the missiles it fires?
 
Quote    Reply

DropBear    RE:Maybe not   10/18/2004 10:36:12 AM
Don't agree with your statement thatmost stealth or non stealth have the same heat signatures. Heat sig reduction is one of the tenets of stealth design! It stands to reason that your RCS and HSR would be complimentary. Your other point on Amraam taking out stealth planes is redundant, as no potential enemy of an Amraam has inherent stealth capabilities. Tracking stealth aircraft and hitting missiles(?) are two separate issues, besides, it comes down to the band or frequency you are using. For example, the F-35 JSF may have frontal aspect RCS to defeat X-band radars, however, a missile may have jammers that can defeat X-band etc and vica versa.
 
Quote    Reply

Galderio    RE:Maybe not - DropBear   10/18/2004 11:20:55 AM
Sorry I donīt speak english very well! 1- Yes, the F-117 and the B-2 have low observable engine exaustors, but the F-35 and the Raptor do not(Similar tail configuration of the Eagle). With itīs supercruise capability the F-22 will have higther frontal IR signature than any other fighters at subsonic speeds. 2-The AMRAAMs oponents still donīt have Stealth capabilities, but that will change in 10 years. 3- I was was trying to say that, it will be or could be easier to hit an AMRAAM than the F-35. 4-If you have an eficient ECM system so small protect your missiles, I think you wonīt need a stealth figther.
 
Quote    Reply

Galderio    RE:Maybe not - DropBear   10/18/2004 11:20:56 AM
Sorry I donīt speak english very well! 1- Yes, the F-117 and the B-2 have low observable engine exaustors, but the F-35 and the Raptor do not(Similar tail configuration of the Eagle). With itīs supercruise capability the F-22 will have higther frontal IR signature than any other fighters at subsonic speeds. 2-The AMRAAMs oponents still donīt have Stealth capabilities, but that will change in 10 years. 3- I was was trying to say that, it will be or could be easier to hit an AMRAAM than the F-35. 4-If you have an eficient ECM system so small protect your missiles, I think you wonīt need a stealth figther.
 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy    RE:Maybe not - DropBear   10/18/2004 1:21:51 PM
"I hear redtop was over-rated and that few Lightning F6 actually carried them?" From what I gather the red-top was a good missile for it's time, having all aspect capability and a very decent range for a short range IR missile of the time. The reason it was not widely used on the Lightning are two fold; firstly the RAF still had large stocks of firestreaks available, and secondly the firestreak had a pointed nose and so was far better for the lightning aerodynamically than the round nose of the red-top.
 
Quote    Reply

DropBear    RE:Galderio   10/18/2004 8:33:45 PM
"1- Yes, the F-117 and the B-2 have low observable engine exaustors, but the F-35 and the Raptor do not(Similar tail configuration of the Eagle). With itīs supercruise capability the F-22 will have higther frontal IR signature than any other fighters at subsonic speeds." The Raptor has composite tiling on the internal areas of the exhaust nozzle and it has 2-D thrust vectoring, so again, the Raptor's rear quarter RCS and heat signatures aren't a real issue for IR missiles or SAMs. I don't understand/see the correlation between supercruise functioning and frontal aspect heat signatures, at subsonic speeds????? Do you mean its rear aspect? As it has one of the best faceted nose sections of any 5th generation multirole fighter!! I think you would be extremely lucky if you can intercept/hit and destroy any missile air-to-air, let alone an Amraam, especially the AIM-120C-5 version. "4-If you have an eficient ECM system so small protect your missiles, I think you wonīt need a stealth figther." Two separate doctrinal issues..
 
Quote    Reply
Pages: 1 2 3 4   NEXT



StrategyWorld.comĐ 1998 - 2010StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy