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Subject: Has really the era of BVR arrive?
Terrex    10/18/2004 1:30:45 AM
During the vietnam war,US air force predicted dogfight was useless and not neccessary.BVR is the new hip with their semi-guided Sparrow air to air missile reign,then after a few incident of mis-hit of friendly aircraft.US air force change ROE requiring their pilot to identify the aircraft before shooting! Sparrow becomes useless and Sidewinder becomes the main weapon but sidewinder still cannot replace machine gun in some v close situation. But with recent,emphasize of BVR weapon and using advance technology of identifying foe or friend.Is dogfight outdated? So enemy aircraft once detected on radar,they just lock on and shoot?
 
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USN-MID    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 1:32:35 AM
Majority of GWI kills were BVR with the latest Sparrows.
 
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Terrex    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 2:08:16 AM
The problem is has most modern airforce solved the problem of identifying friend or foe in BVR range? How abt Israel Air Force way of doing their combat.I heard many of the kill of arab aircraft r by BVR especially the Lebanon 82'
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 2:33:27 AM
"Majority of GWI kills were BVR with the latest Sparrows" Even the Iraqis got a BVR kill (F/A-18C shot down by R-40 firing MiG-25). Terrex, dogfighting is definately not outdated. BVR missiles using pulse doppler radar can have the lock broken by a hard turn that will lower the apparent target velocity to less than 100km/h (known as a Cuban Turn). Depending on the range of the initial BVR shot, chances are that the two aircraft might have to close to WVR to finish each other off, so I wouldn't rule WVR out just yet.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Has really the era of BVR arrive?   10/18/2004 2:33:31 AM
The issue are the ROE's. If you are in designated airspace and the other areas are open calls - then yes you can probably make an assumption that the closing aircraft isn't one of yours. Technically you can pop an aircraft from hundreds of k's with some current missiles - the issue is always the local ROE's. In somewhere like Lebanon, the risk of a commercial tooling around whilst the rest of the air is hot is highly unlikely - ispo facto, if the meeting aircraft is closing at a speed that doesn't match any civil parameters and known civ aviation conditions - then it would have been safer to shoot. Thats obviously different from someone popping a hostile over metropolitan paris. ;) traffic conditions are likely to be more congested, mixed etc... In a recent incident in Australia, a small commercial broached secure air space, there were Hornets stacked for air cover (as there was a serious event in play and they were airborne and armed for top cover anyway). The pilot was at the stage of being able to fire at his discretion. A "visual" confirmed that it was an idiot private pilot who had not checked air space conditions etc... he could have been popped BVR, the thing that saved him was the pilot electing to double check with WVR. (the order to shoot autonomously was the first time that it's ever been allowed by an australian prime minister)
 
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boris the romanian    gf0012-aust   10/18/2004 2:34:19 AM
How was Germany?
 
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DropBear    RE:Aust ROE's   10/18/2004 2:55:27 AM
The Australian Rules require a line of sight mark1 eyeball approach to BVR, yes this is contrary to the definition of BVR, but there you go! The RAAF are world leaders in WVR and will wax all comers! check out "Aviation Week & Space Technology" September 3, 2001. Article - Australian Training Yields Top-Notch Fighter Pilots. Secondly, there are a few misconceptions about use of SPARROW AAM. Firstly, AIM-7 Sparrow was not considered a true BVR when it was designed. It was a SARH AAM with limited beam-riding radar guidance technology. The lack of kills attributed to the weapon were due to a number of reasons. Firstly, you had to keep your target radar "painted" on the enemy. Hard to do when you have a Mig up your six! Secondly, there were missfires, hung ordnance command errors, falty seeker/guidance packs, warhead malfunctions etc etc. Of the 196 recorded Mig kills by USA military aircraft during Vietnam, 55 of the 196 Migs were shot down, solely by use of AIM-7 Sparrow! The majority being early build AIM-7B! Also, the majority of Sparrow kills were by bomb-trucking USAF jets, as opposed to airdefence configured USN Phantoms. ROE's had little to do with scoring kills and more emphasis should be placed on the poor beginnings of the Sparrow. However, this is not to criticise the Sparrow, as Aspide and SkyFlash have been direct development offshoots.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Aust ROE's   10/18/2004 9:52:46 AM
All this BVR crap is boring as Hell.... can you imagine a Battle of Britain type film where the RAF shoot down the Germans while 80 miles away? Where is the entertainment value?! Lightnings with firestreak and redtop dogfighting with Mig 21's with AA-2... now that would be entertaining. :D.
 
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DropBear    RE:Aust ROE's   10/18/2004 9:58:35 AM
I hear redtop was over-rated and that few Lightning F6 actually carried them??
 
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Galderio    Maybe not   10/18/2004 10:06:37 AM
How usefull would be the AMRAAM against Stealth fighters? Short and medium range IR and IIR guided missiles maybe better because most Stealth and nonstealth aircrafts still have nearly the same thermal signature.
 
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Galderio    RE:Maybe not   10/18/2004 10:13:13 AM
If you can track and hit a Stealth figther why canīt you track and hit the missiles it fires?
 
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