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Subject: Israel Gets Closer
SYSOP    9/25/2014 6:04:22 AM
 
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avatar3       9/25/2014 7:42:38 AM
   
  "One reason for that was that during much of the 19 days ground troops were in Gaza for the recent Hamas war each combat brigade had at least one F-16 assigned to it (just to that brigade). This sort of thing makes a difference."
 
   It certainly does. This is may not be revolutionary but an it certainly is evolutionary in that each Brigade Commander now has the CCC of air assets that previously only available to a Division or Corp Commander.  The speed of change,  that is the ability to review and implement "lessons learned" is not just a combat multiplier but is also indicative of  the quality of an organization from the top to the bottom. This super effectiveness sounds like that of the German Army in the last years of WWII.
 
 
 
 
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keffler25       9/25/2014 8:58:37 AM
The Germans LOST. It also sounds more like Patton/Quesada and the USAAF 9th Tacair.
   
  "One reason for that was that during much of the 19 days ground troops were in Gaza for the recent Hamas war each combat brigade had at least one F-16 assigned to it (just to that brigade). This sort of thing makes a difference."
 
   It certainly does. This is may not be revolutionary but an it certainly is evolutionary in that each Brigade Commander now has the CCC of air assets that previously only available to a Division or Corp Commander.  The speed of change,  that is the ability to review and implement "lessons learned" is not just a combat multiplier but is also indicative of  the quality of an organization from the top to the bottom. This super effectiveness sounds like that of the German Army in the last years of WWII.
 
 
 

 
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avatar3    Gen Patton   9/25/2014 9:55:36 AM
I didn't say they won the war I just said that they became very effective. Once the Allied tide rose after Normandy and Patton (himself our greatest effective) started to operate in concert with the USAAF Air Arm it was all over but for the fat lady. The Germans lost Rommel and control of the air but they still kept punching. Someone mentioned in these columns Col Michael Markus, a staff officer who was parachuted into France just after D-Day. His job was to interrogate newly captured German Officers and find out why German Army Units that started the war in 1939 and did not replace casualties, were still so effective in 1944.
 
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keffler25       9/25/2014 10:39:57 AM
I merely pointed out that the Israelis now use air controller methods pioneered by the British Eighth Army in North Africa, then learned by the US 7th Corps from them in North Africa, somehow completely forgotten by the British RAF/Army when they joined the Americans in both Italy and later in France and RELEARNED the hard way (OJT)  by Patton's 3rd Army in France '44. But of course a student of military history might know that original CAS doctrines and control methods were significantly worked out independently at three locations, by the Japanese in China, the US Marines during the Banana Wars, and by the Germans(Italians) in Spain.
 
You might add the Finns during the Winter War, but they never had the planes and the opportunity to make it a formal procedure. The Russians learned from the Germans.    
 
The odd thing is that no British historian has ever been able to explain how the RAF who pioneered FACs among the Western allies and worked out the best air/ground cooperation system with British 8th Army in North Africa in 1942 (one of the very few things that Bernard Law Montgomery actually did right as a general) threw it all away, so that by the time the British landed on the Italian mainland their close air support was actually worse than the Americans!
 
Then they compounded the error with their Normandy campaign.
 
Unbelievable. It took them as long to relearn the lessons the third time; as it took 9th TAF to learn CAS the first time (August 1944).
 
And what is that lesson?
 
CAS is a perishable combat skill that (at least in the C4I sense) that must be PRACTICED and kept current or the air force will simply ignore it. It is up to an army to insist on CAS training and force it, as it is the army who is the customer.   
 

Someone mentioned in these columns Col Michael Markus, a staff officer who was parachuted into France just after D-Day. His job was to interrogate newly captured German Officers and find out why German Army Units that started the war in 1939 and did not replace casualties, were still so effective in 1944.







 
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keffler25       9/25/2014 10:45:31 AM
And I might point out that aside from a few examples on the Russian front... after Kursk in 1943, the Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht is as CAS incompetent as the Russians were/are.   
 
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vahitkanig       9/25/2014 11:30:35 AM
Communication difficulties with  ground  troops and  airforce  sometimes  cause  problem  for  ground  troops.
Air force deliver  the  bombs  and  ground  troops  detonetes or  bombs , missiles  with allied recognition systems just  incase   has to pass over the friendly  troops before  explode.Still ground  troops  has to develop  their own air  attack capabilities
 
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JFKY    Gonna go wth Keffler, here...   9/25/2014 11:37:58 AM
The Germans did NOT have an effective CAS...Luftwaffe/Heere pairing, in the last years of the war....they had no Luftwaffe....the 9th US Air Force or the Allied Tactical Air Force is the model you'd be looking @ in WWII, for effective airpower application.
 
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avatar3    JFKY-Eating Crow   9/25/2014 2:05:54 PM
  You are correct about German CAS, but the last Luffwaffe organized attempt to do air damage did not occur until early 1945 (Op Bedenkomp?).  This through the use production fighters and of advance jet and rocket aircraft. This failed, to little to late and though German aircraft production never ceased they actually ran out of pilots.
   In the invasion of Sicily, Montgomery left his weather and RAF staffers in North Africa. This was not the only "OS" moment for him, he often  dismissed "Ultra" reports.
   DeGaulle was another ass in the same mode, you will remember him as saying that the Invasion of Normandy would never work. 
  
   
   
 
  
 
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JFKY    Avatar-3   9/25/2014 3:14:33 PM
Uh No, Bodenplatte was NOT the first...the Luftwaffe attacked the Polish airfields in 1939, French/British airfields in 1940, & Soviet airfields in 1941...quite successfully.
 
Please learn some military history...further for all the hoopla about this "successful" attack, please note most histories don't mention it, because the loses though embarrassing never halted nor impeded the Allied air offensives against Germany.
 
It is akin to the Slapton Sands incident, the Germans did achieve a small tactical victory, & nothing else.
 
& I can't find any reference to De Gaulle opposing Normandy, his "opposition" was to the proposed post-invasion plans for a French Provisional Government, which did not include him as President....Obviously de Gaulle supported the Normandy Invasion, how else was France to be Liberated?  Again, that is a silly comment, however possibly English is your second language & you were trying to convey a somewhat different meaning.
 
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Johnny    @Avatar-3   9/25/2014 5:47:17 PM
"I can't find any reference to De Gaulle opposing Normandy, his "opposition" was to the proposed post-invasion plans for a French Provisional Government, which did not include him as President...."
 
Actually no. De Gaulle was opposed to AMGOT  (Allied Military Government for Occupied Countries), i.e. the US military, running France instead of the French. Not quite the same thing.
 
 
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