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Subject: China Abides
SYSOP    2/21/2014 5:22:25 AM
 
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tteng       2/21/2014 3:25:35 PM
Two prone approach,
 
1.  Pilot training: they need to get as many 200 flight-hr/yr pilot as possible, that means 1 engine= 1 plane= 1 pilot for the whole year.  The idea is that, if and when WS-10 can be mass produced, there are already experienced pilots (who trained on the Russian-engined Chinese fighters) to fly them.
 
2.  WS-10 going from development to mass production:  'durable but not reliable' sounds like quality control issue, not expertise issue. 
 
Another thing, the purchasing of Russian engines is more than the hardware itself; there is a political consideration to it.  The current detente between China and Russia is purchased: Russian oil/gas/mil.hardware for Chinese hard currency.  If China starts going off on its own, then China must find what else to buy from Russia, which is slim picking.  So, if 'purchasing Russian engine' is an important aspect of China's Russia policy, then 'Chinese engine' is not a pure techinical (or mfg) issue.
 
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keffler25       2/24/2014 8:32:13 AM
The Chinese have SERIOUS fluid dynamics issues with their engines. Everyone does, but the secret to jet engines is how to handle air flow through rthe engine and how to dump heat.   
 
The Americans are now GOOD at it, but only because of that decades of experience of doing it WRONG   
 
They went through dozens of poor jet engine designs before they stumbled onto a formula that works. 
 
The Chinese have tried to STEAL that data, but that is a funny thing.
 
You cannot STEAL an original art work in engineering. Only FORGE it. And the Chinese forgeries of Russian designs is not very good yet.
 
That is why I pity Chinese pilots. They undergo NOW, flying in crappy Chinese copies of Russian planes using crappy Chinese copies of Russian engines, what American pilots who flew original American airframes with American copies of British jet engines did. For no reason at all that they can understand, the engine doesn't quit, and they can eject. It explodes and that pilot dies.      
 
And as for learning from mistakes, well there ARE national cultures and national ways to do things. 
 
The Chinese are no different from anyone else.
 
The Americans have a history for designing poor fusing. This is KNOWN about them. American troops are leery of their own ordnance as a result.
 
The Chinese have an emgineering history of designing the stupidest most unworkable way of applying technology. This is KNOWN about them. So Chinese weapon designers are actually encouraged to copy successful foreign designs and STEAL the production methods. This tends to keep them behind, makes them copy cats, and non-innovative. That is not a bad thing for them. 
 
But when you add that to a culture where fraud, lying, and looking good is more important than performance, well... 
 
There was this episode in the Sino Japanese war, where Chinese warships tried to take on the Japanese. The Chinese on paper actually outgunned the Japanese.
 
quote:

The Beiyang Fleet was one of the four modernised Chinese navies in the late Qing Dynasty. The navies were heavily sponsored by Li Hongzhang, the Viceroy of Chili (Hebei). The Beiyang Fleet was the dominant navy in East Asia before the first Sino-Japanese War. the Beiyang Fleet consisted mostly of battleships imported from Germany and Britain. When the flagships Dingyuan and Zhenyuan were purchased from Germany,The Beiyang Fleet was said to be the "Best in Asia" and "The 8th largThe pride of the Beiyang Fleet were the German-built steel battleships Dingyuan and Zhenyuan. The other Chinese fleets, the Nanyang and Fujian fleets did not help the Beiyang fleet in the war, remembering how the Beiyang fleet recalled two ships during the Sino-French War and out of rivalry .

Corruption was a serious problem. Chinese politicians systematically embezzled funds, even during the war. As a result, the Beiyang Fleet did not purchase any battleships after its establishment in 1888. The purchase of ammunition stopped in 1891, with the funding being embezzled to build the summer palace in Beijing. Logistics were a huge problem, as construction of railroads in Manchuria had been discouraged.

 

Between 1881 and 1889 the Beiyang Fleet acquired a squadron of eight protected or armoured cruisers, most of which were built in either Britain or Germany . However ships were not maintained properly and indiscipline was common. When the Beiyang Fleet visited Yokohama in 1891, Togo Heihachiro was shocked to see trash on the decks and washing hanging from the guns. He liked the Chinese fleet to having the appearance of a fine sword but being no sharper than a kitchen knife .

 

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History tends to repeat. I would be very afraid if I were one of the gerontach reprobates in Beijing. The Americans do not play at war at all like the Chinese do.  That is THEIR history. 
 
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kartist    gerontach   10/1/2014 7:10:33 PM
gerontach - what is that?? 
 
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