Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: The 5th Generation Is Cursed
SYSOP    10/4/2013 5:10:28 AM
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7   NEXT
Mike666       10/4/2013 1:10:09 PM
China's J-20 has the smiliar engine issue. During the first phase deployment, J-20 has to equip with less capable engine. In the second phase deployment, J-20 will have new engine WS-15.
 
Quote    Reply

keffler       10/4/2013 4:18:26 PM
Which does not work.

 
Quote    Reply

WarNerd       10/4/2013 5:43:04 PM
It is likely that both Russia and China will end up trying to make the jump to 6th generation fighters without fielding a true 5th Gen aircraft.  Don't think they will succeed on schedule, if at all.
 
The problem with 6th Gen is we still don't know what it should do, or how.  Most of it will be software problems, followed by legal problems for creating autonomous systems.  You can't have human oversight without emissions violating your stealth, but without oversight your software has to be incredibly robust.  As a consequence expect 6th Gen fighters are going to be delayed for a long time, probably decades.
 
Quote    Reply

Gerry       10/4/2013 10:58:19 PM
The bottom line is that the US has 5th generation flying and has had them flying for the past 5 years. By the time India and Russia get their first 5th generation flying the US will have its 5.5 gen flying and the 6th generation in the works. A no win for the technology deficient Russians nor India.
 
Quote    Reply

Blacktail       10/5/2013 5:02:23 AM
Well, what'll you know? The T-50 is in even bigger trouble than the F-22! The AL-41 is an even older program than the F119, and was initiated in 1982. It ended up being integrated into it's "host airframe" (the T-50) more than 10 years after the first flight of the F-22A (the real thing; not the YF-22). So, the AL-41 had more than 15 extra years of extra development time than the F119, but it STILL isn't working right. Allow me to impress upon you just how colossal a f###-up that is. Unlike the AL-41, the F119 was not developed directly from the preceding engine (though it did borrow some features from the F100), which made it a vastly higher-risk project. It took at least a half-decade to develop by the time it's YF119 prototype took to the skies in the YF-22 and YF-23. From there, it took more than a decade before the USAF and P&W were able to safely and reliably produce it's full 35000lb thrust output, which was finally authorized in July of 2002. By comparison, the AL-41 has had every shortcut, every "easy button", and every other sort of developmental advantage it could possibly have in over the F119, but it still wasn't enough. More than 10 years later after the F119 finally became fully-operational, the AL-41 still doesn't work right. Arkhip Mikhailovich Lyulka must by turning over in his grave. And people say I only criticize *US* weapon programs. ;-)
 
Quote    Reply

keffler       10/5/2013 7:15:22 PM
B.S. The fan disk melts in the AL-41. The Pratt's doesn't.
 
Quote    Reply

rkap       10/10/2013 12:26:33 PM
The comments in the article about the Pak Fa engine and radar are wrong  based on Russian reports. The writer has obviously mixed up and confused the Russian naming system. The various AL41 types and AL31 types etc.  Not hard to do.
1] The present engine is called the 117. [Not the 117S - that is an older engine.]
No problems with it. Been mature for a long time and was being flight tested as early as 2006 from memory. 
In reality the 117 is about 80% new and is completely different to the 117S.
It has about a 2ton thrust advantage over the previous 117S.
2]The Stage2 Engine for the Pak Fa - Known as Type30 -  Russian reports say it is progressing well and on schedule. Most individual parts etc. now are ready to go. It is entirely new and will form the basis of future engines for 30+ years. Due to start flight tests in 2014/2015. This new engine [they hope] will have about the same thrust as the F135. More than the released figures for the F119 and will weigh only about  1100kg. The F119 weighs about 18/1900kg from memory. 
Development of the original AL41---- [whatever] was abandoned about 20 years ago. They had problems with it being a very advanced variable bypass engine keeping the weight and size down. The same sort of problems GE and Rolls Royce  probably had when trying to perfect the now cancelled F136. A variable bypass engine also.
4] The AESA Radar. The Russians say they have procured all the equipment to mass produce the TRM's for it and they will be able to easily supply them as delivery of the first 10 series aircraft begins next year. A Russian report just said the other day they might even start the first Weapons testing this year. The only area which is new for them was the manufacture of the TRM's. I think they said they have bought new manufacturing equipment from Japan.[so it will be some of the best]. It is not the first AESA they have built anyway. They have had one for the Mig35 for some time.
That question that needs to be answered is when will the F35 start weapons testing and when will it be ready for operation?

 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

keffler       10/10/2013 1:22:39 PM
Not answerable for two reasons.
 
One is that the USAF has screwed up the test program again. And they won't talk about it.
Two is that the USN isn't talking either.
 
As an aside, the article nomenclature may be (slightly) wrong on the engines, (pulled that garbage you spouted from Wiki did you?) but that does not change two FACTS.
 
Saturn has not solved the heat problem and compressor stall in its engines. Ever.
 
And neither has Tikhomirov, who have yet to show a comparable reliable AESA radar to the SABR, much less an APG-79.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

rkap       4/1/2014 8:12:35 AM
Not from Wiki. Press releases made by Sukoi Design Heads and Untied Engine Company heads and Chief Designers etc.
Interviews with them are on the Web if you look.
The 117 is almost a new motor compared to the AL-31 Series.  Sukoi claims the first prototype flew with the 117 - not the 117s. Some very early articles speculated it used the 117s. The Stage2 Motor [Type30] has had all components designed and tested individually to date. In other words they consider they now have the Metal technology and composite technology for this new 5++ Generation engine solved. [There chief designer calls it a 5/6 Generation engine]. This year 2014 a complete engine is to be assembled and bench tested started. Sure they probably will encounter some problems and need to make some modifications as testing of complete engines proceeds over the next 2-3 years. There head designer though is confident they have now perfected the metal and composite technology to produce a light weight [1100kg] supercruise engine with a thrust of about 18ton. The hard part is developing metals and composites that can handle the stresses and heat and keeping the weight down. The only thing published about engine problems was by one Indian journalist who has a reputation for doing sensationalist articles. There is definitely some sort of internal conflict also going on in India. More and more it looks as if India can't in reality afford the Rafale and the Pak Fa. Also some arguments about the Rafale contract. It still is not definite. That Indian journalist got most of the published names and technical facts on the Pak Fa wrong also. Was it more about internal Politics or aircraft? The only really official thing on weight that is known about the Pak Fa weight is that it had a design weight of 15.5 ton empty. Light for an airframe bigger than the F22. It will perform exceptionally well if they can keep it that low in weight. Normally though weight grows. On composites they are building a new advanced Composite factory using the best imported technology available. This plant in the long term will produce composite airframe components for the Pak Fa and new MS21 Airliner [all composite wings] etc. Like all early prototypes a lot of HAND work has been involved in the production of the first articles. Only an idiot would assume production models would be built that way. All the equipment to manufacture composite airframe components  is available on the world market. Nothing secret or special about that anymore. e.g. The first all Composite wing for the MS21 is being made in Austria using a world first technique. Once it goes into production they will be made in Russia. Russia makes about 18ton of critical Titanium parts for the A350 Airbus. [That's one thing they don't need to import - best in the World in Titanium]. Others buy off them. That's the world today. 
 
Quote    Reply

keffler25       4/1/2014 2:46:04 PM
Science fiction.

The comments in the article about the Pak Fa engine and radar are wrong  based on Russian reports. The writer has obviously mixed up and confused the Russian naming system. The various AL41 types and AL31 types etc.  Not hard to do.

1] The present engine is called the 117. [Not the 117S - that is an older engine.]

No problems with it. Been mature for a long time and was being flight tested as early as 2006 from memory. 

In reality the 117 is about 80% new and is completely different to the 117S.

It has about a 2ton thrust advantage over the previous 117S.

2]The Stage2 Engine for the Pak Fa - Known as Type30 -  Russian reports say it is progressing well and on schedule. Most individual parts etc. now are ready to go. It is entirely new and will form the basis of future engines for 30+ years. Due to start flight tests in 2014/2015. This new engine [they hope] will have about the same thrust as the F135. More than the released figures for the F119 and will weigh only about  1100kg. The F119 weighs about 18/1900kg from memory. 

Development of the original AL41---- [whatever] was abandoned about 20 years ago. They had problems with it being a very advanced variable bypass engine keeping the weight and size down. The same sort of problems GE and Rolls Royce  probably had when trying to perfect the now cancelled F136. A variable bypass engine also.
4] The AESA Radar. The Russians say they have procured all the equipment to mass produce the TRM's for it and they will be able to easily supply them as delivery of the first 10 series aircraft begins next year. A Russian report just said the other day they might even start the first Weapons testing this year. The only area which is new for them was the manufacture of the TRM's. I think they said they have bought new manufacturing equipment from Japan.[so it will be some of the best]. It is not the first AESA they have built anyway. They have had one for the Mig35 for some time.
That question that needs to be answered is when will the F35 start weapons testing and when will it be ready for operation?

 
 
 
 

 
Quote    Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics