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Subject: Modify the B-17 into night bomber/low altatude streak bomber?
45-Shooter    2/14/2013 3:55:59 PM
Given the multiple lines of debate; B-17 Vs Lancaster Vs Mossy, I post the following question; To convert the B-17 from a day bomber into a night/streak bomber, remove the top, bottom and chin turrets, remove the waist and cheek guns and gunners, relocate the flight deck to just behind the bombadier's space so that there is onlythree or four crew! Install large spinners on the props and install a single 20 mm auto-cannon on a flexible "X" bow mount in the plexi nose. Reduction in frontal area, weight and increases in streamlinning make flight both much faster and much more efficient! Since there is room for four 4,000 pound MC bombs in the bomb bay, the shakles should be modified to hold those four heavy bombs if the larger shakle does not fit now. Otherwise eight 2,000 pound bombs should be the standard load. Given the 210-220 knot cruising speed of the Mossy required to make the placard range, the new faster B-17N/S should offer more of everything that makes the Mossy so neat?
 
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oldbutnotwise       3/8/2013 2:58:38 AM
That does not state a single thing you claimed except the title "15 ton Flying Fortress"! Which as the text inside states was the 1934 version of the plane, not the 18.25 ton plane it became!
not unless you now claim the B17G is a 1934 version as it clearly states the G model when doing these comparisons
On which page? Parragraph, line? What comparisons? You have posted no comps, only a vague reff to the "15 ton Flying Fortress."
You found the title on line, but obviously have not read the book as there are no quotes at the sorce you linked to!
rubbish and you know it I gave you the CHAPTER and quotes from that chapter and still you refute it, ok you give me a page line and word number and I will tell you that word - any page not just those you can find online, go on if you have access to the book which I very much doubt as you are continuing to spout things that are clearly sated as wrong in the book
 
Try the FINAL CHAPTER - called comparisons it clearly states the above facts, his show you have not read it (if you had you might have also caged your mind on the engines)
What "above facts"? You never posted any facts
 
yes i DID about the B17 bomb bay and about comparasions with the Lanc but as usual you try to wriggle out
 
I do not want any hints. It's not worth my time to putz around. It's your claim, now support it or shut up.
As to the sorce of at least one set of measurements of the inside of the B-17G's bomb bay, I made them myself. So unless you can make the same claim to dispute me, you are the one with the defficet of knowledge! Not me!
does not look like does it as ALL sources but you says no
Then list a source, including page # and the realivant facts thereon!
 
why? I gave you the source and the chapter now you want page number? why are you unable to read a whole chapter? can you only read a page at a time is more than that too taxing? or is it that more than a page and you have forgotton what was on the first page?
If you have claimed to have read it then it clearly states the engine replacement on the Sally B during its US war bond tour, what were they?
 
 
Am going back to Daton next month, how about you meet me there and I'll get us both in to the archives to search and to physically measure the B-17's bomb bay? Fine send me the airfare (its about £1200 presently)   and I will be more than happy to ensure you cannot cheat and lie again
Not inclined to do that because it is against my moral code to give charity where none was earned.
then dont be stupid about suggesting it then
 
 Get a real job that pays well enough so that you can take a decent vacation. If not to the USA, then to any of the B-17s on display out your way.
wow for a online poster you are mighty brave arnt you, you have NO idea what I do for a living or how much I earn
you wanted me to travel 1/4 way round the world purely beaause you cannot be trusted to do a simple measurement

See this one it should be close enough for a day trip, if you have a car?
I have been to Duxford many times and I am planning to see a couple of thier airshows this year, however Sally B (which isnt part of IMW at duxford BTW) does not allow the Pulic near for insurance purposes and the B17 in the USAAF Museum has its Bomb bay shut so no way of measure the internals which is the required measurement, but if you want to come over you can try you being so wealthy and all that
 
BTW Duxford from where I live is a full day and I have a wife and family so have other considerations 
 
 
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giblets       3/10/2013 3:08:44 PM
Whilst you are there, perhaps you could ask the experts where they would put a 4,000lb bomb... (the answer is under the wings) .
 
 
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oldbutnotwise       3/11/2013 3:46:32 AM
He might also ask as to how they could have hung them internally as the shackles were only rated to 2000lbs and had a maximum safety margin hat took it to 3200lbs eyt he wants to hang 4000lb+ on one
 
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45-Shooter       3/11/2013 2:03:17 PM

On which page? Parragraph, line? What comparisons? You have posted no comps, only a vague reff to the "15 ton Flying Fortress."
rubbish and you know it I gave you the CHAPTER and quotes from that chapter 
 You never posted a specific chapter, page or anything that was listed as a "Qote" either with ot with out "*" Marks  
Try the FINAL CHAPTER - called comparisons it clearly states the above facts, his show you have not read it (if you had you might have also caged your mind on the engines)
You only posted this line listing the "Final Chapter" long after I posted the first question above, several times. Also, you never actually "Quoted" the sited data, you just stated that "It clearly states the above favcts" but never listed the above facts you were stateing.
   
What "above facts"? You never posted any facts
This was my original reply to you lack of posting the data you quoted.
yes i DID about the B17 bomb bay and about comparasions with the Lanc but as usual you try to wriggle out
Well, no you did not!
I do not want any hints. It's not worth my time to putz around. It's your claim, now support it or shut up.
why? I gave you the source and the chapter now you want page number? If you have claimed to have read it then it clearly states the engine replacement on the Sally B during its US war bond tour, what were they?
I never ever claimed to have read it, I claimed that it did not agree with you. There is a differance and it does matter.

    then dont be stupid about suggesting it then
  I sugested that you take a trip to a world famous museum and meet me there. I had no clue that you were not from here. I then suggested that you go to one of the local museums there in Europe as there are several B-17s and Lancasters to see.
Get a real job that pays well enough so that you can take a decent vacation. If not to the USA, then to any of the B-17s on display out your way.
wow for a online poster you are mighty brave arnt you, you have NO idea what I do for a living or how much I earn
How ever much it is, and I can make at least two reasonable suppositions, you do not work hard enough for it to interfere with your making many posts here and you claim poverty and can not afford to make any trip to either confirm or disproove my possits.
you wanted me to travel 1/4 way round the world purely beaause you cannot be trusted to do a simple measurement
No, I did not know where you were from. I made a stupid assumption that you were from here because most people who are not retired that live in Europe do not have enough time to go interesting places, or make so many posts.


See this one it should be close enough for a day trip, if you have a car?
I have been to Duxford many times and I am planning to see a couple of thier airshows this year, however Sally B does not allow the Pulic near for insurance purposes...
I did not know that. Never claimed to be wealthy, just inventive in my desire to go places cheep. There are many pictures of the Sally-B with crouds all around it. The last time I was in the Museum of the USAF, I was primarily interested in the under the cowl space of the Me-109G in their possesion. The bomb bay that I did measure is in the Strategic Air Command Museum, near Omaha, Ne. But all the times before, I never had any trouble getting a close look at any of the planes. So I made the assumption it would still be like that. Note that they still take research reservations at the Museum of the USAF.

BTW Duxford from where I live is a full day and I have a wife and family so have other considerations 
  You are so lucky! A wife and kids is the very best things that can happen to anyone! And this is not a joke of any sort, I am truely envious of you!

 

A hint, do what ever it takes to keep her and them happy! I let my job get between me and two wives and I truely miss the first more than you could possibly know to this very day!

 
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oldbutnotwise       3/11/2013 3:07:37 PM
On which page? Parragraph, line? What comparisons? You have posted no comps, only a vague reff to the "15 ton Flying Fortress."
rubbish and you know it I gave you the CHAPTER and quotes from that chapter         
 You never posted a specific chapter, page or anything that was listed as a "Qote" either with ot with out "*" Marks  
Try the FINAL CHAPTER - called comparisons it clearly states the above facts, his show you have not read it (if you had you might have also caged your mind on the engines)      
       You only posted this line listing the "Final Chapter" long after I posted the first question above, several times. Also, you never actually "Quoted" the sited data, you just stated that "It clearly states the above favcts" but never listed the above facts you were stateing.       
but if you had read the book instead of claiming I hadn't you would have seen the information but no you just assumed I was wrong as it did not agree with your fantasy world
 
all your above statement is just trying to wriggle out of the fact that you were challenged and found out that you were churning BS, anybody with more than a single brain cell could have found the information I posted in the reference book I stated, but no you had to BS and state I was wrong when actually you had NO IDEA whether I was wrong or right, it shows the quality of your posts, you answer factual information with total rubbish
 
so have page 233
"B17G  combat speed 208mph bomb load 5000lbs"
"Lancaster combat speed 227mph bomb load 1400lbs"
 
under the sub chapter The B17 munitions page 236
 it gives details of the bombs carried and on page 239 it states
"A small number of M56/4000lbs bombs were received in 1944 but could not be carried internally by either the B17 or B24, experiments to use them on under wing racks of B17s were not successful and no record has been discovered to suggest that M56s were delivered on combat missions"
   
on page 240 under the sub heading "the problem with the B17"
"the b17 bomb bay was eight foot nine inches long by seven feet wide, but this had to be divided in two down its length and then subtract the nine inch wide walkway"
 
What "above facts"? You never posted any facts
This was my original reply to you lack of posting the data you quoted.
yes i DID about the B17 bomb bay and about comparasions with the Lanc but as usual you try to wriggle out
Well, no you did not!
I do not want any hints. It's not worth my time to putz around. It's your claim, now support it or shut up.
why? I gave you the source and the chapter now you want page number?        If you have claimed to have read it then it clearly states the engine replacement on the Sally B during its US war bond tour, what were they?      
I never ever claimed to have read it, I claimed that it did not agree with you. There is a differance and it does matter.    
yes there is a difference, one is a lie the other is just dishonest how can you say something does not agree with me when I have read the book and you haven't? this is beyond a joke how you can defame someone with NO evidence
 
oh and by the way it DOES agree with me so you are wrong again
   
 
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oldbutnotwise       3/11/2013 3:41:51 PM
 then dont be stupid about suggesting it then
  I sugested that you take a trip to a world famous museum and meet me there. I had no clue that you were not from here.
then why assume why not ask?
 
I then suggested that you go to one of the local museums there in Europe as there are several B-17s and Lancasters to see.
I have seen and it would seem understood a lot more than you
 
  
How ever much it is, and I can make at least two reasonable suppositions, you do not work hard enough for it to interfere with your making many posts here and you claim poverty and can not afford to make any trip to either confirm or disproove my possits.    
what a conceited attitude, you have no idea and yet you continue this trash, I have access to this wonderful resource tool, it is called the INTERNET you might of heard of it, its amazing what you can find on it you should try it sometime, your local library can probably provide cheap access
 
you wanted me to travel 1/4 way round the world purely beaause you cannot be trusted to do a simple measurement      
No, I did not know where you were from. I made a stupid assumption that you were from here because most people who are not retired that live in Europe do not have enough time to go interesting places, or make so many posts.       
 wow your racist too just how do you work that out as Europe tends to work less hours than the US and as I get 25 days holiday a year (and weekends) + bank holidays and work a 35hour week I find I have a reasonable amount of time to do both, and for your information I have visited Duxford, Cosford, IWM London, RAF museum Hendon, fleet air arm museum, Bovington tank museum, Scottish air museum, York Air museum, Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre, the Royal armouries, Newark Air Museum, HMS Victory, HMS Warrior ,HMS Unicorn, HMS Belfast, HMS Calvalier and Old Warden to name just a few, so have no trouble, I also live less then 10 miles from one of the plants that built Lancasters, the building is still their and so are the AA defence posts scattered about, I can also travel 50 miles and visit coastal defences and even the dam the Dambusters used as practice, I have a wealth of sites and interesting people who actual were there during the war, my mates uncle served in BC from 41 till the end of the war flying Hampdens, wellingtons and Pathfinder mossies.
It is thing like this that get me riled about your inaccurate and degrading posts, and now finding out that you refused to do even the minimum of research to justify your posts makes me start to regard you as an utter troll

    
I did not know that. Never claimed to be wealthy, just inventive in my desire to go places cheep. There are many pictures of the Sally-B with crouds all around it. 
have you any idea how lame that sounds as justification?
 
The last time I was in the Museum of the USAF, I was primarily interested in the under the cowl space of the Me-109G in their possesion.
why did you think their was room under it for an 88mm?
The bomb bay that I did measure is in the Strategic Air Command Museum, near Omaha, Ne. But all the times before, I never had any trouble getting a close look at any of the planes.
yet you still made a complete mess of measuring it
 
 So I made the assumption it would still be like that. Note that they still take research reservations at the Museum of the USAF.      
they cannot know you very well then
BTW Duxford from where I live is a full day and I have a wife and family so have other considerations       
  You are so lucky! A wife and kids is the very best things that can happen to anyone! And this is not a joke of any sort, I am truely envious of you!
 
I have no need of any emotion from you all I would ask was a bit of honesty something I have yet to get
 
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45-Shooter       3/11/2013 5:25:39 PM

  I sugested that you take a trip to a world famous museum and meet me there. I had no clue that you were not from here.
then why assume why not ask?
Because of the way you have so much time to kill!
 wow your racist  What on earth ever gave you this idea?   too just how do you work that out as Europe tends to work less hours than the US http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_PPP_Per_Capita_IMF_2008.svg   and as I get 25 days holiday a year (and weekends) + bank holidays and work a 35hour week 
was in the Museum of the USAF, I was primarily interested in the under the cowl space of the Me-109G in their possesion.
why did you think their was room under it for an 88mm?
    WTF??? When did I ever state anything even remotely like this?
My big claim came from two sources, Willey Messerschmitt's book on the planes he built and my former landlord who flew a Me-109K with a 30 MM Mk-103 shooting through the prop hub and two Mg-151/15s under the cowling! Now I would think that willy Knew what the planes he built could carry and my old NAZI pilot had a clue and pictures too, so regardless of what everyone else on the planet thinks, I still know that it was possible to put two 151s under the cowl and a Mk-103 through the p rop hub!   
   
The bomb bay that I did measure is in the Strategic Air Command Museum, near Omaha, Ne. But all the times before, I never had any trouble getting a close look at any of the planes.
yet you still made a complete mess of measuring it
All I can say is that I was very cairful and that the 9" width of the walkway is at some distance above the bottom edge of the bay AND include the slopped, not quite verticle racks on both sides that meet at the botom where the bay doors close and lock on it! So the bottom of the bay is over 7' wide, if you measure just the open spaces between the CL rack edge and the inside of the outside rack edge and add both halves together.  
 
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oldbutnotwise       3/11/2013 6:01:46 PM
  I sugested that you take a trip to a world famous museum and meet me there. I had no clue that you were not from here.
then why assume why not ask?
     Because of the way you have so much time to kill!    
because I spend some of my free time doing research and not making things up? you sad man
 wow your racist        What on earth ever gave you this idea?         too just how do you work that out as Europe tends to work less hours than the US        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_PPP_Per_Capita_IMF_2008.svg" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_PPP_Per_Capita_IMF_2008.svg" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_PPP_Per_Capita_IMF_2008.svg  
which shows that Europe is not far behind despite working less hours and Norway is actually matching despite one of the lowest working days in the west
       and as I get 25 days holiday a year (and weekends) + bank holidays and work a 35hour week 
was in the Museum of the USAF, I was primarily interested in the under the cowl space of the Me-109G in their possesion.
why did you think their was room under it for an 88mm?         
    WTF??? When did I ever state anything even remotely like this?
 
no you didn't actually make this claim but its is close to ones you do make
My big claim came from two sources, Willey Messerschmitt's book on the planes he built and my former landlord who flew a Me-109K with a 30 MM Mk-103 shooting through the prop hub and two Mg-151/15s under the cowling! Now I would think that willy Knew what the planes he built could carry and my old NAZI pilot had a clue and pictures too, so regardless of what everyone else on the planet thinks, I still know that it was possible to put two 151s under the cowl and a Mk-103 through the p       rop        hub!   
   
yeah right 2x 20mm under the cowl you just make this up don't you
 
The bomb bay that I did measure is in the Strategic Air Command Museum, near Omaha, Ne. But all the times before, I never had any trouble getting a close look at any of the planes.
yet you still made a complete mess of measuring it
    All I can say is that I was very cairful and that the 9" width of the walkway is at some distance above the bottom edge of the bay AND include the slopped, not quite verticle racks on both sides that meet at the botom where the bay doors close and lock on it! So the bottom of the bay is over 7' wide, if you measure just the open spaces between the CL rack edge and the inside of the outside rack edge and add both halves together.  
 
you say my source is wrong and yet all you can do is post your opinion you are a joke
 
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Maratabc    BF109   3/11/2013 7:43:45 PM
 
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 1:27:53 AM

why did you think their was room under it for an 88mm?         
    WTF??? When did I ever state anything even remotely like this?
no you didn't actually make this claim but its is close to ones you do make
Thank you for this small consession.

My big claim came from two sources, Willey Messerschmitt's book on the planes he built and my former landlord who flew a Me-109K with a 30 MM Mk-103 shooting through the prop hub and two Mg-151/15s under the cowling! Now I would think that willy knew what the planes he built could carry and my old NAZI pilot had a clue and pictures too, so regardless of what everyone else on the planet thinks, I still know that it was possible to put two 151s under the cowl and a Mk-103 through the prop hub!    
yeah right 2x 20mm under the cowl you just make this up don't you
  No, lets be correct here, it was two MG-151/15s, not 2X20 as you state above.


 
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