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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter    1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM
I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.
 
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45-Shooter       1/10/2013 10:50:53 PM

on your comparison are you being delibrately misleading or stupid?
 
if you comapare tow things it is only honest to compair like with like, here you use the Max climb rate of the P38 and the climb rate of the Spit at 22000ft+
Not at all, I used the figures posted on Wiki, which are at Max Continous power, not WEP!
a like to like would be
 
P38
    Rate of climb......
: 4,750 ft/min  maximum No, you have made a small mistake her this is the Max Cont power figure! Not WEP                             Spitfire MkXIV
    Rate of climb......
: 5,040 ft/min   maximum No, you have made a small mistake her this is theWEP power figure! 
you use this technique so often that I am convinced that it is delibrate and makes you very dishonset

No, it is you who are dishonest. You are the one not comp'ing like with like! Also, the figure you post is post war where the Mk-XIV had 2,350-2,450 HP availible, not the 2,030 of the war time Griffon engine!
So you tell me where did the correct figures come from and what are they?

 
 
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45-Shooter       1/10/2013 11:07:25 PM


The Spit failed in Burma, too.
I beg to differ, the spit quickly gained air superioity and never lost it so I dont see how you can say it failed
 
Two specific cases can make a general rule with regards to the Japanese. The P-40 which was an inferior plane (on paper) to the Spit did better in both New Guinea and Guadalcanal.
 
no it didnt the p40 was vastgly inferior to the Spit in every area except low speed low altitude turns which was exactly the sweet spot of the Zero and certainly wasnt the the way the p40 had success against the Zero
 
 And again about the Allison, you are wrong. The fault was not the engine. It was the training. The pilots ran their fuel mix wrong.
WHilst the fuel mix was wrong the problems with the alison continued till the end of the war, Merlins were used with great success in Hurricanes, Spits and seafires , P40s and P51s (as well as Mossies and later Hornets)
 
 
When Charles Lindburgh went out to the Pacific to teach them how to lean their fuel, the burnouts in the Allisons stopped.
No they didnt the RTB though engine failures remained high thoughout the war
 
They never solved the problem with the Merlin in tropical conditions. That had something to do with the carburetor. 
Maybe fuel injection should have been the way to go for the tropicalized Merlin? Certainly the radials didn't have the problem.
what problems?  other than the prop problems and overheating due to the spit being designed for cold european skys I have not read of any and certainly every RAAF sites seem to agree that the MkV and VIII they got did stirling service (note that they didnt get the MkIX or later so basically they were using 1941 aircraft)
 
fuel injection is not the answer as the carb cooled the charge something Fuel injection didnt, RR was well aware of fuel injection but it was a technical decision to go with carbs.
 
You keep mentions fuel problems but what fuel problems? only issues I can find with fuel is lack of supplies of high octane fuel
While many ancedotal examples can be found and in this instance, I only want to point out a single instance of the P-40's performance that greatly exceeded that of the Mk-V Spitfire! The zoom climb! So you can not take one plane, of any type and say it is better in all cases than the other plane of some other type. There are good, better and best parts of the envelope in EVERY plane AND they are ALL different. The trick is to know which parts are the most important and which parts have the largest advantage over the target! I do not want to get into another p'ing contest so I will not mention the other three areas where the P-40 was vastly superior to the Mk-V Spitfire! Just know that for an absolute fact that those other areas do exist and they are significant!

 
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45-Shooter       1/11/2013 12:16:42 AM
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/w4076.pdf" target="_blank">link
This is extreamly important! Note that in one of the links, there is a test, (see the exact address above), of the same plane in four different conditions and that the results vari by up to 26 MPH because of the type of paint finish used! 26MPH and you all think I am crazy when I do not pick nits about a few MPH!
But as to the P-38 and what I told you? Here is a bit of inf
 
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-wayne.html</a></div> </div><div>Note" target="_blank"> link the climb rates? This link did not work?
 
General data on various aircraft here:
 
http://www.wwiiaircraftperform... See this link, go well down on the page!
 
I would suggest using the FW190 as the benchmark. 
 
For a FULL in depth NO BS discussion of aircraft criticized here in this thread; I encourage you to read this thread;
 
Separate chaff from wheat. Keep to data as much as possible.
 
 
for P-38 combat performance data.
 
Note that it could OUTCORNER any German fighter including the FW-190 at most altitudes, which meant it could OUTCORNER any British fighter as well.
 
Remember that flight is a transient condition and that the plane best known by its driver performs best from moment to moment.
 
B. P.s. Spitfire Vs were sent to Darwin with the Med kit you described. They FAILED.
 
Keep up the good work. Your comments are often spot on and accurate, even if we interpret some of it 'facts' differently     
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/11/2013 3:01:06 AM





on your comparison are you being delibrately misleading or stupid?
if you comapare tow things it is only honest to compair like with like, here you use the Max climb rate of the P38 and the climb rate of the Spit at 22000ft+
Not at all, I used the figures posted on Wiki, which are at Max Continous power, not WEP!
and the spit is initial - how is that honest? try checking the figure for the p38 under the same conditions you wwill find its not what you are claiming
 
P38
    Rate of climb.........
: 4,750 ft/min  maximum No, you have made a small mistake her this is the Max Cont power figure! Not WEP                             Spitfire MkXIV
    Rate of climb.........


:
5,040 ft/min   maximum No, you have made a small mistake her this is theWEP power figure! 
you use this technique so often that I am convinced that it is delibrate and makes you very dishonset


No, it is you who are dishonest. You are the one not comp'ing like with like! Also, the figure you post is post war where the Mk-XIV had 2,350-2,450 HP availible, not the 2,030 of the war time Griffon engine!
So you tell me where did the correct figures come from and what are they?
 
No they are comparable and you know it, you used initial climb for the spit ad max for the P38 and it clearly sates this on your source, a source that is linked on the above post states the climb rate for a MkXIV and is dated 1944 so it definitely you thats in error

 



 
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oldbutnotwise       1/11/2013 3:20:39 AM









maybe you do a bit of reading about those operations, maybe just maybe the loses were more about the way the operations were conducted rather than the aircraft? This is absolutely true! The BoB and the Sweeps over France were both different and exactly the same, depending on your point of view! why should we do your digging it you that is making the claime yet you now say that you cannot be bothered to actaul reasearch your posts then why should we bother taking you seriously?Because when I make factual but unsupported, of thinly supported claims, no-one believed me are dismissed them out of hand!
 

  Noone dissmisses them out of hand initially, it is only when you have been prooved wrong so many times that people end to think - oh no shooter spouting crap again and demand that you provide evidence of your claims (which you usually fail to do)
2. Over France, the exact same conditions applied to the RAF!
Not quite, over England the RAF was FORCED to engage, over France the LW could pick and choose, over England the RAF barely had time to get to the same atitude as the incoming bombers (and very raely had hieght over the 109s
Over France the LW virtually never engaged unless they had height advantage , In the BoB the RAF was always out numberd but ove France the LW was Rarely (if they were they usually avoided combat)
3. Because it was very hard at the time to go from cruise speed to WEP .....
Rearly and just how do you figure that, on a Spit in the BoB it was a case of pushing the throttle open its not like you had to set the radiator, adjust the intake , change the fuel feed etc
 
4. Because the defender is at larger throttle pos, he is going faster and has more energy to play with.
not when he is climbing to meet an openent, there he is bleeding energy in the climb, then its the guy with height that has the advantage, more potential energy , and usually a ice view of the climbing fighter (oh even more so if he is "in the sun"
 
5. When bounced the attacker has to advance the throttle and dogfight. The Defender is already at full throttle.
but the attack would be against the bombers in the BoB at which point the top cover 109s would have all the advantages you name
 
6. The statistical average of very many thousdands of encounters shows the deffender gets the best of it most of the time, given planes of equal, or nearly equal performance.
no the aircraft with the height advantage has the advantage
   
PS. As a seperate factiod, most people here on this board do not believe that a fighter plane engine can destroy itself in such short order. Two things to think on;
 
1. The Merlin/DB601 made more power for longer than any modern passenger car engine! If you do not belive it take one to the track like Boniville, or Daytona and run it flat out for five minutes at a wack! I have done both and have watched so many fast cars blow up you would not believe it. It only takes 90 seconds to make a pass at the salt flats, read the results to see how many "Door Slammers" blow up in just that time. I mean Ferrari's, Turbo Porsche's and all the others too! If it's not built for the test, it blows up and that is using modern technology far in advance of anything in WW-II.
 
Think on this, a modern car engine is designed to run from zero to 100mph+ often in traffic always in stop start conditions and is only expected to run consistantly at a fraction of its power ad it does this amazingly well, if you design a motor to run at peak power for long periods then they tend to do that, a F1 engine is a better example of an engine designed to run at high power, they have only 8 engines to run a full season including practice, qualifying and testing as well as the race, and these engines are designed to be far more flexable than an aircraft engine yet rarely do they blow.
Agian you use a bad example


 
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oldbutnotwise       1/11/2013 3:24:51 AM






The Spit failed in Burma, too.
I beg to differ, the spit quickly gained air superioity and never lost it so I dont see how you can say it failed
 
Two specific cases can make a general rule with regards to the Japanese. The P-40 which was an inferior plane (on paper) to the Spit did better in both New Guinea and Guadalcanal.
 
no it didnt the p40 was vastgly inferior to the Spit in every area except low speed low altitude turns which was exactly the sweet spot of the Zero and certainly wasnt the the way the p40 had success against the Zero
 
 And again about the Allison, you are wrong. The fault was not the engine. It was the training. The pilots ran their fuel mix wrong.
WHilst the fuel mix was wrong the problems with the alison continued till the end of the war, Merlins were used with great success in Hurricanes, Spits and seafires , P40s and P51s (as well as Mossies and later Hornets)
 
 
When Charles Lindburgh went out to the Pacific to teach them how to lean their fuel, the burnouts in the Allisons stopped.
No they didnt the RTB though engine failures remained high thoughout the war
 
They never solved the problem with the Merlin in tropical conditions. That had something to do with the carburetor. 
Maybe fuel injection should have been the way to go for the tropicalized Merlin? Certainly the radials didn't have the problem.
what problems?  other than the prop problems and overheating due to the spit being designed for cold european skys I have not read of any and certainly every RAAF sites seem to agree that the MkV and VIII they got did stirling service (note that they didnt get the MkIX or later so basically they were using 1941 aircraft)
 
fuel injection is not the answer as the carb cooled the charge something Fuel injection didnt, RR was well aware of fuel injection but it was a technical decision to go with carbs.
 
You keep mentions fuel problems but what fuel problems? only issues I can find with fuel is lack of supplies of high octane fuel
While many ancedotal examples can be found and in this instance, I only want to point out a single instance of the P-40's performance that greatly exceeded that of the Mk-V Spitfire! The zoom climb! So you can not take one plane, of any type and say it is better in all cases than the other plane of some other type. There are good, better and best parts of the envelope in EVERY plane AND they are ALL different. The trick is to know which parts are the most important and which parts have the largest advantage over the target! I do not want to get into another p'ing contest so I will not mention the other three areas where the P-40 was vastly superior to the Mk-V Spitfire! Just know that for an absolute fact that those other areas do exist and they are significant!

And yet it would be a very foolhardy pilot who would Choose a P40 to fight a Spitfire as the advantages of a Spit far outway the advantages of a P40
No you just like to p on the Spit dont you, you consistantly misrepresent the spits performance and yet think you are being clever, the zoom climb is only advantagous for a short period in certain circumstances, as the spit had better substained climb and better altitude performance I know which a proper fighter pilot would choose 

 
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/11/2013 3:27:06 AM


excuse me but exactly why do you think they carried out these tests - maybe because those 26MPH were important!
    



 
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oldbutnotwise       1/11/2013 3:33:59 AM

   
P.s. Spitfire Vs were sent to Darwin with the Med kit you described. They FAILED. QED.

did they?

first they had the early type Vokes  filter (big duck bill things) rather than the later Aboukir? filter

they were also pretty clapped out

 


No they weren't.  Factory crated. - no they were shiped from Egypt and were ex Deserrt Airforce, later ones were new  but these first ones were second hand and there are many reports from th Aussies about geting worn out hand me downs something you would know if you had actually read any of the soirces to keep pointing me to

   
what about the MkVIIIs? of which Aussies got more of than they did MkVs!

     Same problem, European solution to Pacific war. Aussies had to fix them, locally.

really? in what way - exaqctly what did they do? you make the claim you substaiate it

  
   
even what happened at darwin is disputed

 


Not at all. The US kept good records on what didn't work. So did Australia. That is why I referred you  to Australian archives.
US records of RAAF aircraft opereating in Austrailia?
 
The records show that the majority of Spit losses in ove drawin were mechanical failures (a lot down to the poor quality runways) and pilots not following procedures on fuel state, the actual air to air losses were not that great

===========================

Or try;
"Darwin Spitfires, the real battle for Australia" by Anthony Cooper
 
The conclusions against the Spitfire and P-40 versus the Japanese Zekes and Oscars one can draw is quite scathing. Mostly pilots are the problems, but he covers the opposing sides' technical deficiencies I mention quite well.
 
B.
 
I shall
 

 




 
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Belisarius1234    As I said...    1/11/2013 3:52:55 AM
read the book. It contains  war diary and pilot testimony.

B.
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/11/2013 7:17:40 AM
History of the Chirchill wing  54, 452 457 squadrons
Out of a total flying complement of 95 pilots initially assigned to No.1 Wing
only 33 pilots had been on active Ops, with fourteen actually having been
involved in air combat. Of that fourteen five were aces; Clive Caldwell with
20.5, Adrian Goldsmith with 12.5, Ray Thorold-Smith with 7, John Bisley with 6
and Bob Foster with 4.5.
 
On the 6th Feb '43 they drew first blood, shooting down a Ki-46 Dinah recce
bomber, but it was to be the 2nd Mar that they first faced Zeros. 21 A6Ms of the
202nd Kokutai escorted 9 G4M Bettys of the 753rd on a raid against Darwin. 20
miles off the coast, low on fuel, a flight of 6, 54 squadron Mk Vc Spitfires
caught the raiders. A swift, confused, 8 minute dogfight ensued. Both sides
claimed to have shot down several enemys, but in fact only one Spitfire and two
Zeros were damaged.
Wg Cdr Caldwell noted that in tight, 160 mph turns, the
Zero didn't get dangerously close until after the Spitfires' speed had begun to
wash off after the second turn. He "easily evaded" the Zero with a downward
break.

On the 15th Mar '43, returning from night ops and with their
oxygen supply depleted, 452 sqn attacked a force of 50 Japanese aircraft, split
evenly between fighters and bombers. Four Spitfires were lost, but four Zeros
were shot down, three of the bombers destroyed and a further seven Japanese
aircraft were damaged. It was a cold comfort, two of the Spitfire pilots downed
were killed, including seven 'kill' ace Sqn Ldr Thorold-Smith, 452s
CO.

Worse was to come. On the 2nd May'43 another 50 'plane Japanese raid
was met by all 33 of the Wings operational fighters. In a gruelling twenty five
minute running battle the Spitfires had five of their number shot down, but took
ten enemy aircraft in return, with many more damaged. However, a further
ten Spitfires were lost to fuel shortages and mechanical failures! The press
release from Gen. MacArthurs office stated they had suffered a "severe reverse".
With no way of knowing how many of their damaged foes made it back to base there
was no way to refute the report. Mud sticks. When the air war over Darwin is
mentioned today, the loss of 15 Spitfires for just 10 enemy aircraft inevitably
surfaces. Usually with a snide comment about the accuracy of the 10 claimed by
the Australians. http://warbirdsforum.com/images/smilies/frown.gif" />

On 9th May '43 Spitfires operating out of
a satelite field destroyed two Zeros and damaged a third. The victory was mared
when they lost a Spitfire in a landing accident.

28 May '43 six
Spitfires met thirteen Japanese aircraft. They lost two fighters, but shot down
two bombers and damaged a third.

20th June '43 the JAAF decided to try
their luck. 30 bombers and 22 Ki-43 Oscars were met by 46 Spitfires. 9 bombers
were destroyed, 8 more damaged, 5 fighters were shot down, 2 damaged without the
Wing losing a single Spitfire.

28 June '43 a mixed bag of 18 Zeros and
Bettys were bounced by 457 sqn. 3 Zeros were destroyed, 2 bombers probably
joined them, for no Australian loss.

30 June '43 Fenton, the base of the
USAAF 380th BG, was attacked by 27 Bettys and 20 Zeros. 4 bombers were
destroyed, 4 more probably destroyed, 3 Zeros were destroyed with 6 probables,
for no Spitfires lost.

6 July '43 saw 26 bombers and 21 fighters being
engaged by the Wing. 9 Japanese aircraft were destroyed, 2 Spitfires were shot
down, but 6 more were lost to mechanical defects.
 
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