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Subject: Libyan No Fly Zone
giblets    3/17/2011 6:03:02 PM
Seeing as there does not appear to be a Libyan discussion area (an omission surely?). Thought it would be worth discussing. With the UN currently voting on a no fly zone, and talk of this being led by the EU and contribution by up to 5 arab nations. Who would contribute what? Am sure the RAF could contribute Tornados for the early stage of the process (the SEAD phase), but would like to see the Typhoons involved later. As for teh French, likely to include Rafales? And Arab countries, Saudi with their F-15's or Typhoons (if they are trained up). The UAE could use their block 60's? And surely Egypt would be involved on this one.
 
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heraldabc    The French can do SEAD   3/21/2011 2:25:09 AM

unless they con someone else to do it.

 

Facts just are.

 

Its NOT the AdA pilots who make the policy or adopt such a nefarious practice.


 

H. 

Follow up, they were careful to avoid active SAM sites.

H.
 
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Das Kardinal       3/21/2011 3:21:43 AM

Apples and oranges. France had no business trying any monkey business anywhere, not after she meddled in Japan (Eso Republic), Korea, and Mexico (these were French attempts to establish puppet regimes, incidents where the United States opposed that criminal nation action's by diplomacy and force. Notice I did not even mention French criminality in the US Civil War?
(...)
Few people here realize, that like Britain, the United States at that time properly regarded France as an enemy of the United States and a colonialist imperialist state of international disrepute.    


H.
 
Because neither the US nor Britain tried any colonialist monkey business aywhere themselves. The double standards are eye-popping. 
It's also funny to see France being labeled as the worst criminal colonial power, with Britain and the US in contrast being supposedly paragons of virtue and decency. I mean... Britain. Do names like "Opium Wars" or "Boer concentration camps" ring a bell ? Puh-leeze. 
Oh and for the record. Please name me one, ONE native people the French colonials actively genocided. Or, for the fun of it, one example of the French doing something like handing natives items and blankets infected with smallpox. 
Got the point ?
Good, then we can move on to the subject of Libya instead of flinging manure on each nations' past.
 
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Brad Piff       3/21/2011 6:25:34 AM




unless they con someone else to do it.



 



Facts just are.



 



Its NOT the AdA pilots who make the policy or adopt such a nefarious practice.






 



H. 




Follow up, they were careful to avoid active SAM sites.




H.






Ofcourse, what did you expect? Seems like they were really scared that benghazi would fall, and rushed before everybody else was ready. But you gotta give em credits, especially the first 2 rafales, which went in the middle of the day, and did recon without ATG weapons.
 
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Das Kardinal       3/21/2011 6:57:17 AM

Ofcourse, what did you expect? Seems like they were really scared that benghazi would fall, and rushed before everybody else was ready. But you gotta give em credits, especially the first 2 rafales, which went in the middle of the day, and did recon without ATG weapons.

That said, the Libyan IADS admittedly wasn't a pants-staining threat for modern Western planes. Which doesn't preclude the comfort factor of DEAD. If you're a pilot and 90% sure (random figure) that the SAM site down there can't threaten your plane (because you have great ECM, great passive stealth whatever), you'll still feel even better if the probability jumps to 100% because said SAM site is now a smoking crater. When your own delicate precious butt is on the line...
 
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Mikko    Mi rant!   3/21/2011 7:09:17 AM
Clearly the initial goal was to buy time: Many nations had already invested their faces to support the rebels. So they had to throw in their weight to buy time and retain credibility.

Arabs, Russians and Chinese are already playing their leveraging game, using western entanglement to gain political and diplomatic maneuvering space. How sad can you get. "We didn't mean this (although this is exactly what we meant and knew would happen)!" 

Makes one wonder. We all know Arab & African blood weighs very little in western internal politics. A kitten run over on our home street hurts our feelings more than a poorly reported-upon slaughter in a strange world. So the keys to all this are 

a) Sticking on the side many nations were too quick to pick, just to save their own faces

b) Encouraging the in itself thrilling trend of Arab nation rebellions, not letting one fail in a complete humiliating disaster in the hands of a nut case

From now on, any outcome is better than with no intervention. Faces saved, appropriate amount of anti-dictatorial stance proven. A two-country -solution? A prolonged civil war? Who cares. Oil is a consideration as well as Kaddafi's ability to support terrorism. This doesn't end well or bad, it just ends up in a different kind of mess. No-one ever went to this thinking of anything more, a mess nonetheless but only with saved faces and something done. 

Nice to have a new high-tech war on telly too. Charles De Gaulle on its way, cool pics, cool European muscle flexing for a change. 

Makes all sense and not one bit at the same time. 

M 
 
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heraldabc       3/21/2011 8:21:11 AM



Apples and oranges. France had no business trying any monkey business anywhere, not after she meddled in Japan (Eso Republic), Korea, and Mexico (these were French attempts to establish puppet regimes, incidents where the United States opposed that criminal nation action's by diplomacy and force. Notice I did not even mention French criminality in the US Civil War?

(...)

Few people here realize, that like Britain, the United States at that time properly regarded France as an enemy of the United States and a colonialist imperialist state of international disrepute.    







H.


 


Because neither the US nor Britain tried any colonialist monkey business aywhere themselves. The double standards are eye-popping. 

It's also funny to see France being labeled as the worst criminal colonial power, with Britain and the US in contrast being supposedly paragons of virtue and decency. I mean... Britain. Do names like "Opium Wars" or "Boer concentration camps" ring a bell ? Puh-leeze. 

Oh and for the record. Please name me one, ONE native people the French colonials actively genocided. Or, for the fun of it, one example of the French doing something like handing natives items and blankets infected with smallpox. 

Got the point ?

Good, then we can move on to the subject of Libya instead of flinging manure on each nations' past.

Of course, they dud, but as I note here with sarcasm, the US paid for and improved the lands we took and in the end we RELEASED our colonies as a matter of policy without being defeated or despised.
 
France not only ruined her colonies but she was ususally chased out at gunpoint and was dmilitarily efeated repeatedly. 
 
H.   
 
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heraldabc       3/21/2011 8:56:33 AM










unless they con someone else to do it.







 







Facts just are.







 







Its NOT the AdA pilots who make the policy or adopt such a nefarious practice.














 







H. 










Follow up, they were careful to avoid active SAM sites.










H.

















Ofcourse, what did you expect? Seems like they were really scared that benghazi would fall, and rushed before everybody else was ready. But you gotta give em credits, especially the first 2 rafales, which went in the middle of the day, and did recon without ATG weapons.

Two faced duplicitous lying French diplomacy, 'Uncle pl,ease help us in what we cannot do ourselves. Uncle please do the dangerous part of the air campaign where all the missiles are.. Uncle please can we borrow your air force and navy, and your command and contril, and your EW expertise, and satellites and weapons and MONEY and military competence so we can ride your star spangled coattails to a 'French' victory in a country where we have no damn business being at all?   


Yeah, Truck Driver, THAT is exactly what I expected from Sarkozy and the idiots who misgovern France.    


You know, nobody in rhe EU gave a damn about US concerns about the Locherby sellout for BP's convenience, nor did France give an inch of help when Diablo Canyon was laid o0n and we needed to save time and gas by granted overflight rights. It was inconvenient for France to stick her neck out for an 'ally' when we needed a little help.
 
So you don;t moind if I point out just WHAT us really going on?
.
Your government doesn't five a damn about the Libyan rebels, just as they don't even give a damn about the French pilots they send to war in substandard aircraft with defective gear. Well they do to the extent, that they do not risk them near even moderately effective SAM sites.   
 
ACTIONS not words. Its about the oil and the next election. Those are the true motives and that was the true reason. 
 
When it comes down to it, why should I expect anything else from France? I'm an educated AMERICAN, Truck Driver. Try your BS on some other naive buffoon.  
 
 
I'm finally tired of "Let Uncle clean up what we screwed up." 

You want us to police the world for you? Then toe the line we set and shut up about what we do to keep the peace, Otherwise do it yourselves and take the consequences when you lose and screw everything up. . 
 

Herald
 
     
 
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FCUS    french raid   3/21/2011 9:05:19 AM
I found more information on the french raid that took place saturday.
 
On the site that was bombed by the french air force, AFP and Reuteurs report the following results:
- 14 tanks destroyed (T55 and T72)
- 20 APC
- 2 BM-21 (MRL trucks)
- dozens of pick-up trucks
 
That is a lot of dammage done with just 4 GBU 49 (which is officially the number of bombs they dropped).
 
I wonder if the 4 USMC AV-8B Harriers took part in the raid...
 
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FCUS    french raid   3/21/2011 9:11:47 AM
I found more information on the french raid that took place saturday.
 
On the site that was bombed by the french air force, AFP and Reuteurs report the following results:
- 14 tanks destroyed (T55 and T72)
- 20 APC
- 2 BM-21 (MRL trucks)
- dozens of pick-up trucks
 
That is a lot of dammage done with just 4 GBU 49 (which is officially the number of bombs they dropped).
 
I wonder if the 4 USMC AV-8B Harriers took part in the raid...
 
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Brad Piff       3/21/2011 9:18:10 AM

I found more information on the french raid that took place saturday.

 

On the site that was bombed by the french air force, AFP and Reuteurs report the following results:

- 14 tanks destroyed (T55 and T72)

- 20 APC

- 2 BM-21 (MRL trucks)

- dozens of pick-up trucks

 

That is a lot of dammage done with just 4 GBU 49 (which is officially the number of bombs they dropped).

 

I wonder if the 4 USMC AV-8B Harriers took part in the raid...


According to the pressconf from the french ministry of defense, french airplanes was not behind these bombings, they've destroyed 4 tanks on the first day so far, and found no targets on the second day.
 
Herald, I don't seem to understand your issue with the french. for now it seems to be a US run operation, and the french airplanes are mostly doing recon and cap. I'm sure that the french and the brits could have done it alone, but I think no one else would have joined without US backing, and the security that the US represents.
 
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