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Subject: Turkey to retrofit all it's F-16 with indegenous mission computers
TAI_New    12/26/2010 9:52:01 AM
After hints that the US can disable Turkish F-16’s by executing hidden segments of software not revealed to Turkish authorities in the critical mission computers of the F-16, the Turkish Air Force has given orders for the removal and replacement of all US made or foreign originated mission computers on it’s F-16 aircraft with the indigenous ASELSAN designed, developed and produced mission computers. It is said that the new mission computers also allow Turkish weapons to be used on the Turkish vipers. “TuAF F-16 Block 30s to fly with Turkish computers” http://www.trdefence.com/2010/12/17/turkish-f-16-block-30s-to-fly-with-turkish-computers/comment-page-1/#comment-3036 Turkey will start integrating indigenous flight mission computers on its fleet of Block 30-type F-16 fighting falcons, daily Hurriyet newspaper reported. The decision came after a key Defense Industry Executive Committee (SSIK) meeting that, for the first time, gave the green light for development of Turkey’s first modern jet trainer and combat aircraft. Turkey’s move to start using its own mission computers on F-16s will greatly increase the country’s self-sufficiency in aerial defence and add to its growing pool of know-how and aerospace technology. Turkish F-16s foreign-originated mission computers and hidden source codes have long been a matter of controversy, with some claiming that foreign manufacturers held the power to disable Turkish jets by executing hidden segments of software not revealed to Turkish authorities. The decision to start using indigenously-developed Turkish mission computers and flight software will effectively eliminate these worries. Turkey’s military eletronics giant Aselsan will design and assemble the new mission computers.
 
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Reactive       12/26/2010 11:56:29 AM
Well good luck finding it - what about the flight control software itself - are they intending to replace this too?
 
Unless they have specific information that there is a "kill switch" or "remote deactivation" code embedded specifically into these systems (either hardware or software) it would seem to be a strange idea to assume that in replacing a small fraction of the total number of microprocessors on the aircraft would rule out the use of such technology. I don't think it can be feasible to do this in terms of FCS - possibly only mission planning software - I would also think that at some point they have signed a MOA that prohibits them from doing this?
 
I'm also not quite sure of the implications for the F-35 program, it surely doesn't demonstrate a level of trust - these units are sold/"comanufactured" with the express condition that the control software source code remains the exclusive property of the US - and even for Tier-1 partners will not be decompiled in entirety - only in segments relevant to purpose - this news (if true) should ring some alarm bells.
 
The jury is still out on where Turkey will be in 10 years - I am one of those people In Europe who gets a little tired of those in the US and elsewhere suggesting the EU "should have given access" to a nation that very few people within the bloc itself view as part of europe, either geographically or culturally. It may have been a wise strategic decision but would be seen to further undermine the already limited "democratic" credentials of the EU as a superstate. Turkey is on a knife edge between support for Erdogan and secularism, his party won a recent referendum and is consolidating its own position in the domestic media (something we've seen before as a sign of intent), in 20 years I have no idea whether they'll be a secular or theocratic state, but I do know that giving them access to the highest technology without being able to mitigate the potential future hostile usage is something that should be a major concern. 
 
I would venture to suggest that the means to disable a plane can be embedded with subtlety, may not form part of obvious mission control software, but may be more easily inserted in hardware form on the thousands of hardware controllers for actuators, servos and the like - all of which can be rigged with ease.
 
R
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       12/26/2010 7:13:38 PM
this is another one of those inane announcements made where its apparent that the reporter is slim on fact but big on panic, nationalism and hyperbole.

considering that the turks have been FMS customers for decades, and of far more sophisticated systems than whats been discussed here, then they would have to be morons not to understand  what they have been getting and what they can keep at an IP level.  quite frankly, the turkish military are not that dumb - which gets back to a newspaper promoting some nationalistic drivel without understanding the subject matter properly in the first place. this isn't the first time that they've wanted source code so as to try and reverse engineer a system.  Its got zero to do with independence and ownership.

good luck decoupling the magic widget that will set the geeks free.... 

if the turks at a govt level suddenly decide that they don't like FMS and IP provisions anymore - then go out and do the hard work themselves.  I suspect their senior military cohort might have a far more pragmatic view of how the real world actually works
 
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TAI_New       12/26/2010 8:50:43 PM
@Reactive  - They are replacing ALL foreign originated software including but not limited to the  flight control software itself.
 
You stated:
 
The jury is still out on where Turkey will be in 10 years - I am one of those people In Europe who gets a little tired of those in the US and elsewhere suggesting the EU "should have given access" to a nation that very few people within the bloc itself view as part of europe, either geographically or culturally. It may have been a wise strategic decision but would be seen to further undermine the already limited "democratic" credentials of the EU as a superstate. Turkey is on a knife edge between support for Erdogan and secularism, his party won a recent referendum and is consolidating its own position in the domestic media (something we've seen before as a sign of intent), in 20 years I have no idea whether they'll be a secular or theocratic state, but I do know that giving them access to the highest technology without being able to mitigate the potential future hostile usage is something that should be a major concern. 
Erdogan and Turks belong to the Sunni Hanafi school of islam. They are know world wide for there moderate views. Although, very very higly unlikely, even if Turkey does become more theocratic the following facts remain: 
In 10 years time Turkey will be one of the top 10 (possibly top 5) economies in the world. It will also be home to Europes most youngest population, in a time when European nations will be having trouble paying it's pensions. It would be at the epicentre of the Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Balkan politics. It would control 80% of the worlds most strategic petroleum and gas pipelines. In 10 years time Turkey would have concluded the Middle Eastern and Aftican Free-trade zones and it would be reaping it's benifits. Turkish companies are already investing heavily in African, Iranian and Azerbeijani oil and gas fields. It would have also completed the Southeastern Anatolia Project  (GAP) and also reaps it's benifits.
 
@gf0012-aust - It must be noted that Turkish vipers use to a great degree Turkish produced Avionics and subsystems. The only major foreign software component were the mission computers. Although Washington had transfered the critical source codes to Turkish Aerospace Industries as part of the Peace Onyx programs, Washinton did not allow the integration of certain Turkish made Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Air into Turkish vipers. They cited "compatibility" issues.
 
During dog fights with Greek vipers Turkish vipers also did not label Greek aircraft as foe and hence this was also causing problems for Ankara. Turkish Defence giant ASELSAN was contracted by the Turkish Government to overcome these issues. As a result of this decision, ASELSAN designed and developed Turkish Avionics, IFF systems, Electronic warfare systems etc for Turkish vipers. An overview of the systems produced by ASELSAN can be found at: http://www.aselsan.com.tr/icerik.asp?kategori_id=463&lang=en
 
You said:
if the turks at a govt level suddenly decide that they don't like FMS and IP provisions anymore - then go out and do the hard work themselves.  I suspect their senior military cohort might have a far more pragmatic view of how the real world actually works
 
Blame some of the senators in Capitol Hill who started stating that the US could "switch off" Turkish vipers. As you also stated Turkish generals are not dumb. They don't leave any windows open for error. The sudden decision to spend $35 billion + on an indegenous fighter is the product of this also. The Turkish Chief of the General Staff has stated that Turkey is now facing threats to it's territorial integrity which it did not experience during WWII and as such must heavily modernize and expand it's Armed Forces. The purchase of LHD's, LPD's, Attack helicopter, Frigates, Destroyesr, Figther aircraft, AWACS, Tanker aircraft, Tanks, Balistic missiles, ABM's, SSK's etc  all show that Turkey is preparing for something.
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       12/27/2010 1:01:42 AM



@gf0012-aust - It must be noted that Turkish vipers use to a great degree Turkish produced Avionics and subsystems. The only major foreign software component were the mission computers. Although Washington had transfered the critical source codes to Turkish Aerospace Industries as part of the Peace Onyx programs, Washinton did not allow the integration of certain Turkish made Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Air into Turkish vipers. They cited "compatibility" issues.

lets not confuse local systems with platform development capability - they're not remotely close.  IF you don;t understand how FMS works I suggest that you find another way to further your case - if you are supporting weapons systems then you know how to fit them out.  considering how close turkey was to israel I would suggest that more weapons integration went on than the general public are aware of.  erdogan screwed that pooch - and I can tell you first hand that there are any number of Turkish senior officers who bemoan the PMs approach to israel.  You might think that Turkey is militarily developed, but she's a long way off - she's not even remotely close to the israelis so this dream of building an indigenous plane is good grist to keep nationalists and teenagers happy, but it fundamentally ignores the reality of what is needed and where.  Local politics is not the same as international politics
 
During dog fights with Greek vipers Turkish vipers also did not label Greek aircraft as foe and hence this was also causing problems for Ankara. Turkish Defence giant ASELSAN was contracted by the Turkish Government to overcome these issues. As a result of this decision, ASELSAN designed and developed Turkish Avionics, IFF systems, Electronic warfare systems etc for Turkish vipers. An overview of the systems produced by ASELSAN can be found at: http://www.aselsan.com.tr/icerik.asp?kategori_id=463&lang=en
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Ypu seem to misunderstand DACT - everyone gets to play blue and red.  white dictates conditions and everyone agrees to it.  If you want to make your problems with Greece part of a NATO planning exercise then you comprehensively don't understand DACT or NATO.  This is not some infantile opportunity for member states to use NATO as a planning tool to kill each other - if you want that then go to the Baltic states.for lessons on how to go backwards in civilisation.  You seriously do not understand the military development process if you are going to keep on posting industrial links.  seriously, you need to understand the issues before defending the capability.  Links and Web pages doesn't cut it.


Blame some of the senators in Capitol Hill who started stating that the US could "switch off" Turkish vipers. As you also stated Turkish generals are not dumb. They don't leave any windows open for error. The sudden decision to spend $35 billion + on an indegenous fighter is the product of this also. The Turkish Chief of the General Staff has stated that Turkey is now facing threats to it's territorial integrity which it did not experience during WWII and as such must heavily modernize and expand it's Armed Forces. The purchase of LHD's, LPD's, Attack helicopter, Frigates, Destroyesr, Figther aircraft, AWACS, Tanker aircraft, Tanks, Balistic missiles, ABM's, SSK's etc  all show that Turkey is preparing for something.

 
are you 15?  are the politicians in turkey 15?  what moron is going to base procurement and development decisions on what a politician said in the US - esp Congress where they have vested interests?  eg was the congress person in a heavily weighted gree
 
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TAI_New       12/27/2010 7:40:52 PM






 

During dog fights with Greek vipers Turkish vipers also did not label Greek aircraft as foe and hence this was also causing problems for Ankara. Turkish Defence giant ASELSAN was contracted by the Turkish Government to overcome these issues. As a result of this decision, ASELSAN designed and developed Turkish Avionics, IFF systems, Electronic warfare systems etc for Turkish vipers. An overview of the systems produced by ASELSAN can be found at: http://www.aselsan.com.tr/icerik.asp?kategori_id=463&lang=en
" target="_blank">link
" target="_blank">link




Ypu seem to misunderstand DACT - everyone gets to play blue and red.  white dictates conditions and everyone agrees to it.  If you want to make your problems with Greece part of a NATO planning exercise then you comprehensively don't understand DACT or NATO.  This is not some infantile opportunity for member states to use NATO as a planning tool to kill each other - if you want that then go to the Baltic states.for lessons on how to go backwards in civilisation.  You seriously do not understand the military development process if you are going to keep on posting industrial links.  seriously, you need to understand the issues before defending the capability.  Links and Web pages doesn't cut it.

What I said has nothing to do with Turkey's membership in NATO. NATO is not a sovereign entity. It is a supra-national defence alliance. As such, it's member states are still free to decide and protect their own individual  interests (in this case Turkey has the right to protect it's interests in Cyprus and the Agean despite having to confront another fellow NATO "ally"). FMS and US made weapons suited Turkish interests in the past. However, things have changed now and the Turks want greater autonomy which the US can no longer accomodate. There is nothing wrong with this. As you may recall the United Kingdom also had requested the source codes for the F-35 it was purchasing. It's quite plain and simple: There could be hostility between Greece and Turkey at anytime and the Turks do not want to be caught offguard. The Hellenic Air Force purchased Dassault Mirage 2000 with IFF systems which label Turkish aircraft as Foe and hence have the upper hand.
Turkey purchased the B-737 MESA AWACS and the US has also transfered the source codes to HAVELSAN (A Turkish Armed Forces company). It is also now retrofiting its own mission computers on it's F-16 to have greater autonomy.

Blame some of the senators in Capitol Hill who started stating that the US could "switch off" Turkish vipers. As you also stated Turkish generals are not dumb. They don't leave any windows open for error. The sudden decision to spend $35 billion + on an indegenous fighter is the product of this also. The Turkish Chief of the General Staff has stated that Turkey is now facing threats to it's territorial integrity which it did not experience during WWII and as such must heavily modernize and expand it's Armed Forces. The purchase of LHD's, LPD's, Attack helicopter, Frigates, Destroyesr, Figther aircraft, AWACS, Tanker aircraft, Tanks, Balistic missiles, ABM's, SSK's etc  all show that Turkey is preparing for something.


are you 15?  are the politicians in turkey 15?  what moron is going to base procurement and development decisions on what a politician said in the US - esp Congress where they have vested interests?  eg was the congress person in a heavily weighted greek electorate?  was a congress person from a heavily weighted turkish electorate quoted as a counterpoint?

Seriously, if some turkish politician is going to get excited at what some congressmen says 8000kms away when all they had to do was look at the FMS provisions and go and read what turkey can get (and has got way out of proprtion to some other NATO allies) then I suggest that the US is better off without the Turks as customers.
 
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