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Subject: An essay and a discussion; French air defense 1940.
Hamilcar    7/30/2010 11:41:33 AM
link Why France Fell to the Nazis: The Air Component Before the War By Raul Colon November 4th 2008 After a visit to France in early January 1940, Sir Edmund Ironside, Chief of the British Imperial General Staff, summed up his impressions of the French Army like this: ?I must say that I saw nothing amiss with it on the surface. The Generals are all tired men, if a bit old from our view-point. None of them showed any lack of confidence?Will the Blitzkrieg, when it comes, allow us to rectify things if they are the same? I must say I don?t know. But I say to myself that we must have confidence in the French Army. It?s the only thing in which we can have confidence?All depends on the French Army and we can do nothing about it?. Those were telling words from the top British commander before the start of the Second World War. Unfortunately for the Allies, his fears proved to be right. When Germany finally attacked the West on May 13th 1940 they did it with such a force that caught the Allies by surprise. Fifteen days after the initial attack wave, Belgium capitulated and the combined might of the French Army and British force were defeated time and time again. Maginot Line Between May 26th and June 4th, the bulk of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) and some remaining elements of the French Army were successfully evacuated from the French Channel port city of Dunkirk. On June 10th, the French government relocated its seat of power from Paris. Four days later, the Germans marched victorious into the Parisian streets. On June 22nd, the new French government caved in and signed an humiliating Armistice, ending one of the most lopsided military campaigns in modern times. The immediate aftermath of the defeat saw the emerging of the ?search for scapegoats? syndrome. A syndrome that is still with us today. The questions regarding the fall of France have resonated since the tragic events of May-June 1940. There are many factors why France was mauled so effortlessly by a numerically inferior adversary. Did the French rearmament investment came too late? Was the Army?s combat doctrine too rigid? Did the French and, to an extend, the BEF; lack innovating and refreshing combat ideas; and so on? In the end, the fall of France is viewed as an example of a what disastrous planning and even more poorly execution can lead to. Since the mid 1930s, France main effort to gear up for a possible German attack was rearmament. Since the mid 1920s, because of the country?s misplaced belief that its newly developed Maginot Line (a series of reinforced structures/forts along the common German/French border) would contain the expected German columns, not much effort was put on rearming the French armed forces. This is all that changed during the emerging of Hitler?s Germany in the early 1930s and only by the middle of the decade, did French rearmament be finally given top budgetary priority. But the sad state of all three services (army, navy and the air force) made progression towards rearmament painstaking slow at best. The worst problem was experienced by the air force. The French air force began rearmament in 1934 as part of Plan I, which called for the production of 1,343 new aircraft. Nevertheless, the assembly of such a force was doomed from the beginning. In the mid 1930s, the French aircraft industry was more one of scattered complexes rather than a cohesion structure. One in which up to forty organizations had input in nearly all aspects of aircraft design, development and production. While at the same time competing for those precious newly designated funds. As they originally were setup, France?s aircraft industry was not structured to handle such big orders, thus the structure needed to be altered which would cause further delays in production. Those delays had an adverse effect on the air force?s rearmament effort. Because of them, most of France?s developed aircraft from the late 1930s came through a narrow technological window. One which prevented the newly developed aircraft from achieving its top technological capability thus making them obsolete before they reached operational status. The problem was compounded by the type of airplanes the French government began to order. Plan I called for the construction of multirole air platforms capable of performing as bombers, fighters and reconnaissance aircraft. Instead of building dedicated platforms, the French government invested on various single type planes. Such aircraft were indeed able to carry out, on a pedestrian basis, each of the various types of missions they were called for, but they could not to distinguish themselves in any single one of them. The decision to develop such platforms was a painful compromise between the Army, the newly formed Air Force and the government. Many inside the air force believed, with passion, in Giulio Douhet?s strategic theory which
 
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Hamilcar       8/5/2010 12:24:39 PM
The US  radar benchmark in question was a 200 meter wavelength CXAM, dimwit.
 
I forgot the k when I typed, so sue me.
 
Just for giggles, the Americans used a version of that very set to bounce radar signals off the MOON in 1946. so thousands of miles WAS in the cards.   .

I'm not impressed by you at all.
 
H.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    How many helicopters did the French face in May of 1940?   8/5/2010 5:04:52 PM




Merchant ships should be killing anybody who is in the water within 1,000 yards of them! Herald, I've already explained why you would have seen no improvement in the Battle of France with Chenault's early warning system. You were kind to bring up the Vietnam experience. It points out very clearly the differences between a blitzkrieg operation (The Battle of France) and when you have static lines between forces with an strategic air campaign being conducted against a weaker less sophisticated force (Vietnam and China)! The difference being nothing can help the French, the Germans are literally tearing them apart so there is no stable line of communication required to maintain the "spider network",  but in the static model where the Vietnamese and the Chinese are able to establish their enemy's course, order of battle, and exact arrival time to a predictable target, there is time to maneuver interceptors to a very advantageous position. 



 



Thank you for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate this important point.



 



Check Six



 



Rocky



 



 







 

2. How ,many helicopters were shot down in South Vietnam, Rocky? 

 

H.



As noted, Vietnam makes my point very nicely. If you are having difficulty with the concepts that Chenault was trying to teach you, re-read my posts. Repeat as required.

 

 


 
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JFKY    Yeah Herald, the IADS   8/5/2010 9:55:53 PM
was so F*cked up, by EW, so that's why the US continually had to support it's strike packages with chaff, jammers, and the like.....and if the Spider Network was F*ckin' effective why would the N. Vietnamese have continued to maintain the IADS?
 
In an era of night attack and attack a/c moving at 900 kilometre per hour at 5-1-,000 metres ground observers are worthless...even at tree top level, what can they report, "A blur went by 20 seconds ago."?
 
Tyr to put the ego in park, and admit that spider networks, sound locators, and the like a poor and ineffective substitute for radar....
 
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JFKY    So until we begin   8/5/2010 10:02:27 PM
to discuss the thread's obstensible purpose I'll check out ...because this is becoming the usual Herald can NOT be wrong, and we're off down some rat hole, red herring thread....
 
Because right now Herald you're being an arrogant doofus...the French could not have used spider networks, as has been pointed out...a spider network isn't going to be able to deal with the Lufftwaffe at the front level.
 
And spider networks are of very limited value, something that your ego has trouble accepting.
 
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gf0012-aust       8/5/2010 10:08:25 PM

sound locators, and the like a poor and ineffective substitute for radar....

i think the mistake in discussions is to treat solutions as "either/or" when discussing solutions.
personally speaking, IMO, anything in the detection loop even if not integrated is a companion capability.  Integration of course leads us down the NCW and system of systems path.....
 
I guess its why I avoid platform and A vs B threads because they are oversimplified and generally created to weight someones own preferences.
 
eg Pak-FA vs Klingon cloaking etc....

 
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JFKY    GF   8/6/2010 10:02:36 AM
Against A-6's and B-52's at night, a spider network is useless....By day it may work against hi-altitude targets, to an extent.  I assume it provides a quadrant warning..."Oh they're heading NE, that must mean Hanoi-Haiphong"  or "They're Navy 'planes, that means Sector 3,4, or 5."  On "Thud Ridge", "They're coming.  It's the USAF, that means Sectors 2, 9. or 11."  Knowing someone is coming is valuable, but visual doesn't give you the warning time.  And I keep noting that at no time did the NVA give up on radar, it's just too valuable.  Finally, as an addendum, I'll note that the Vietnamese lost their air war.  The US never suffered the losses necessary to stop the various campaigns.
 
Bottom-Line: Airplanes beat ground defenses, with or without radar...only other a/c or a counter-air campaign produces any lasting victory in the air.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    WW2 radar usage question   8/7/2010 6:52:44 PM

I've always been under the impression that in WW2 GCI using radar, at least over land, was strictly a strategic affair. Weren't the the radar stations of that era with any sort of range were too large, too indiscriminate and too ineffective against low altitude targets to be deployed and to effectively guide interceptions against small numbers of small targets over a battle front? My impression is that this dictated that the tactics used by fighters over the battle front, which effectively involved WW1 style patrols over the front relying entirely on visual detection. I have never read about a battlefield radar guided interception during that era in any battle, be it in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, the Middle-East, Asia or in the Pacific from 1939 through to 1945. Am I correct about this or have I missed something?

 
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RockyMTNClimber    Battle of Britain radar....   8/7/2010 8:07:39 PM
For the most part radar is strictly a line of sight affair. Therefore if you locate your transmitter on a bluff overlooking the Pacific you will see the Japanese attack force about 40+ miles out to sea. Plenty of time to scramble, if your pants are zipped. By the Battle of Britain the radar picket that the UK had set up could give elevation, azimuth, and direction of flight for the Luftwaffe bomber groups down to about 500 feet over the channel. Again, plenty of visual acuity. In addition, the Brits could guess fairly accurately what the strike package was compsed of based upon its altitude, speed, and the contact size. A squadron of JU-87's just fly diffently than a Gruppen of He-111s.
 
The USAAC could run what we consider to be a modern intercept by 1945. Bad weather and all.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
Dirty little Secret? allot of the radar that today defends the continental US was built in the 1950's and 60's, barely one generation in technology older than those fixed masts on the Dover coast. That should keep US awake at night. 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Rocky   8/7/2010 9:25:39 PM

Thanks. That leaves the question though of whether ground radars at the time were small enough to be realistically able to be operated in a tactical role?

 
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RockyMTNClimber    You tell me....   8/8/2010 10:21:44 AM
I've borrowed Herald's picture of the Hawaian radar set that spotted the Japanese. Does it look like it's mobile enough to you?
 
 
 
 
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